Just wanted to drop a quick "go raibh maith agaibh" to the crowd.

Several postings of mine have all culminated into an exciting thing for me.

About two weeks ago I asked for a translation requesting Irish speakers to join a study group. Your responses were wonderful and as a result I've finally managed to get an Irish Language/Culture Study group started in my little town. One native Irishman (70 years old) responded and will be participating with 4 of us claiming Irish ancestry. We'll have our first "focused" meeting in two days and I was hoping to get some input from this site.

I've decided to take the song Óró Sé Do Bheatha Bhaile and use it as an introduction to some history as well as to introduce the sound of the language. I've got several translations (mine and some other more intelligible ones)and two renditions, one by the Irish Tenors and one by Darach Ó Catháin. (I much prefer Ó Catháin just because a voice without instruments and studio modifications is more sincere and easier to comprehend.)

I'd like to put this song into historical context as well as literary context. I understand that Grace is often referred to in song and poetry as an allusion to Ireland. I also understand an original version was an appeal to Bonnie Prince Charlie (whom I've always associated as a Scotsman so I'm not sure how he plays into this song)and a later version was a call to the diaspora from Patrick Pearse. If anyone could elaborate on Grace O'Malley, Bonnie Prince Charlie, Patrick Pearse etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Le meas,

James

Just get up to speed on Gráinne
She was the business

hehe

http://www.legends.dm.net/pirates/grainne.html

Sorry James I didn't realise it was you!

Well done on getting your group off the ground.

My suggestion on the Orá song would be to concentrate on the the Gráinne character-it's a fantastic story. The Pearse/Charlie elements are only a distraction.


I've given a website above -but if you need any more info- why not post here. I'm sure someone will give a hand.


slán

alec

Alec,

You have, as always, been most helpful. This should give us plenty to discuss.

Go raibh mile maith agat.

Le meas,

James

Aontaim leat, a chara. I'll stick to Gráinne. She seems like a handful (past and present) of excitement and interest.

James

Dia dhuit James,
A great biography of Gráinne Mhaol was published in the late eighties by Wolfhound Press. I suggest you get your hands on it.

'A Notorious Woman'
GRANUAILE
The Life and Times of Grace O'Malley
c.1530-1603

by Anne Chambers

(Wolfhound Press: 68 Mountjoy Square, Dublin 1)
ISBN 086327-213-4
first published 1988: re-published in 1991 and 1994

I don't know about an earlier version of the song having anything to do with Bonnie Prince Charlie.
The song as all kids learn it at school in Ireland was written by Patrick Pearse and was a political device as well as a historical commentary on her life. I don't think there is anything wrong with addressing this in your group.
Remember that Granuaile did meet Queen Elizabeth 1st and that no Irish female head of state met with an English monarch officially again until President Mary Robinson met
Queen Elizabeth 2nd a few years ago. Coincidentally, Mary Robinson is also from County Mayo!

As to the song itself, too few people actually take the time to learn the words by heart and so you hear the chorus trotted out drunkenly in the absence of the stanzas, even though the words of the stanzas are well-crafted and appropriate. Patrick Pearse did a good job with this song.

An album entitled "Granuaile" is availbable on the Tara label: Record No.3017.
It features a suite of songs for a chamber orchestra, augmented by percussion, harp, guitar and uilleann pipes as played by the great Liam O'Flynn. The songs tell the story of Granuaile's life and the vocalist is the fabulous Rita Connolly. I heartily recommend it!

If you need any further help, either with translating the song or just for general information on Granuaile, please don't hesitate to ask.


Congratulations on getting your group up and running!
Where there's a will there's a way!

Slán go fóill,
Seosaimhín

James a chara,

>>>> Your responses were wonderful and as a result I've finally managed to get an Irish Language/Culture Study group started in my little town.

This is great work. Molann an obair an fear! You're really moving things along, fair play to you - Nár lagaí Dia do lámh.


>>>> We'll have our first "focused" meeting in two days and I was hoping to get some input from this site.

Go n-éirí go seoigh libh.

(Cad é mas tá tú a Sheosaimhín? Cumha i ndiaidh Ros Neamhlach ort?)

Seosamh, a chara,
Tá rudaí go maith anseo fiú go mbíonn cumha i ndiaidh Ros Neamhlach orm i dtólamh! Go háirithe anois mar go bhfuil muid ag súil le breith ár gcéad linbh. Tá muid ag D + 3 mar a deireann m'fhear chéile. B'fheidir go mbeidh nuacht againn roimh i bhfad.
Cad é mar atá rudaí ag dul leat féin? An bhfuil an tráchtas críochnaithe agat?
Go n-éirí libh i Luimneach!
Seosaimhín

Go raibh mile maith agaibh, aris.

You guys are great! I pulled some info from the internet, but this is a very nice summary.

I don't know where this group is going or how long it'll last, but I'm going full-tilt for as long as others are willing to play.

Thanks again,

Le meas,

James

So far, we've talked about what we're going to do and how we're going to do it and so far, I'm not sure if everyone has purchased books and tapes yet. I intend to have everyone introduce themselves as gaeilge and then I'd like to follow an exercise in the first chapter of Gaeilge Agus Faílte and just go around the room asking and answering

Cén gaeilge atá ar ____?

I've got things such as window, cup, table, door, book etc. This should last about 10 minutes tops.

Any other suggestions on how to expand on this?

Any other ideas on how to get a small group comfortable talking?

Bear in mind--Tá cupla focal agam so I'm not qualified to teach, only to share what I know or what you kind people can pass on to us.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Le meas,

James

Maith an fear a Shéamais, togha obair,

Good man, James, excellent work,

What you could do when you have learned the vocabulary
is expand on the sentence structure by discussing each object in turn with interrogative phrases like “Cá bhfuil an leabhar?”,“An bhfuil sé ar an mbord?” and answers “Tá” and “Níl” etc. “Cé aige atá an leabhar?” etc.

Someone could go outside the room and knock on the door
to be invited in – “Cé h-é sin amuigh”, “Tar isteach a Shéamais/Máire or whomever. “Suí síos a chara/cháirde” Then this action discussed with “Cé h-é a bhí amuigh?” , “Cé a tháinig isteach?”, “Ar shuí sé síos?” and each to attempt answers in turn until the speech patterns are well established.

Go n-éirí libh!

Is mise, le gach meas,

Éadbhárd Ó Dubhshláine/Edward Delany

Baile Átha Cliath, Éire.

A Éadbhárd: (don't think a sheimhu for the vocative would work here--correct me if I'm wrong)

Ceart go leor! I'll give it a turn and see how it goes. I'll need to keep things fairly simple. My great fear (or hope) is that the members of out little group will learn faster than me!! Then what will I do!!!!

I'll get back in a few days and let you know how things went.

Another quick question:

I've got the Irish names for the participants. Most of us have easily translatable names ie; Maureen, James. Is there an Irish translation for David?

Go raibh mile maith agat.

Is mise le meas,

James

Disregard the request for "David". I found it with the "search" item in the margin.

Gabh mo leithscéal.

Le meas,

James

A Éadbhárd, A Chara:

Our first "real" meeting was GREAT!!!! I took thing very slowly. Right now I have three very eager and dedicated participants and tonight I was able to show them how to greet one another, how to respond as well has how to introduce themselves and ask another's name. We also touched on how to ask using "An bhfuil....." and how to respond to that in the affirmative and the negative.

I introduced the concept of lenition (kind of hard not to with the vocative) and the concept of prepositional pronouns (again, kind of hard not to with "Dia Dhuit" and "... atá ormsa"). We didn't belabor these points, we just brushed across them to explain what the sentences "really" say.

I think things went well and am looking forward to the next meeting. Next time we'll tackle what you have suggested. After the "introductions and greetings" portion, I was starting to get the sense that "information overload" was just over the horizon. I just introduced the "question and answer" portion and let it sit. Next time we'll play with it in depth. ("Depth" being a relative term, given my current level of proficiency.)

We'll take things slowly and make sure things are firmly in hand before progressing. Before long, I envision this becoming more of a study group and less of a class. I'm just trying shine a little light in that dark tunnel we all started out in.

Thanks for all your help. I'll keep you posted!

Le meas,

James

James

Congratulations on your Irish language group. I am 74 years old, originally from NYC, first generation Irish. I belonged to such a group for a couple of years 5 years ago, which broke up a while back. I went to it for a couple of years but allowed other things to take me away from it. The gentleman who started it was in his early seventies then and was well versed in the language. His people were from the Gaeltacht in Galway (the County my parents were from). We used a couple of books, and, at the time, learned quite a bit -- at least I could write a few sentences, but not using it in 4 yrs., I've forgotten it. Don't ever get discouraged -- it is a wonderful language, and maybe now with a computer, I will tune in to what's going on with our language. Slan, Brid Mannion

James

Congratulations on your Irish language group. I am 74 years old, originally from NYC, first generation Irish. I belonged to such a group for a couple of years 5 years ago, which broke up a while back. I went to it for a couple of years but allowed other things to take me away from it. The gentleman who started it was in his early seventies then and was well versed in the language. His people were from the Gaeltacht in Galway (the County my parents were from). We used a couple of books, and, at the time, learned quite a bit -- at least I could write a few sentences, but not using it in 4 yrs., I've forgotten it. Don't ever get discouraged -- it is a wonderful language, and maybe now with a computer, I will tune in to what's going on with our language. Slan, Brid Mannion

a Shéamais,

Dea scéal atá agat faoi do mheitheal Gaelach. Tá súil agam go dtugann sé aoibhneas daoibh.

A little about Bonnie Prince Charlie. He was the grandson of James II, the last Stuart (a Scottish dynasty) king of England, favourable to the Irish, a Catholic and therefore intolerable to his English subjects.

James began to fill the officer ranks of the English army with Irish Catholics thus provoking rebellion among his subjects. A group of them invited William of Orange, a Dutch Prince to land in England, which he did in 1688, causing the beleagured James to flee to Catholic France. William and his wife Mary were installed as monarchs with limited powers in contrast to the absolute powers enjoyed by previous rulers.

Three years later James staged a comeback with the aid of France culminating with the Battle of the Boyne where he was defeated decisively. James died soon after and his claim to the throne passed to his son who became known as the Old Pretender. This guy was a depressive character who lived the dour life of a king without a country. On his death the claim passed to his son Charles, the Young Pretender, Bonnie Prince Charlie (Bonnie means bright, lively, pleasant, pretty in the Scots Dialect). Charles (again with French help) launched two attacks against the London government, in 1715 and 1745. both campaigns originated in Scotland where he landed with a French fleet. The 1745 campaign was highly successful and the English narrowly avoided defeat at Derby. Charlie was chased back
into Scotland where his remaining followers were massacred at Culloden.

The Irish angle is that William and his successors the Georges imposed draconian laws on Catholics, such as being forbidden to own property. Had Bonnie PC won, these would have been repealed. The supporters of the Stuart monarchy in England (Jacobites)had to remain an underground movement and there were all sorts of elaborate secret rituals involved in identifying which side a stranger was on. When William of Orange died in a fall after his horse stumbled on a molehill in 1702, the Jacobites thereafter always raised a toast to "the little gentleman in the black velvet waistcoat".

One point to remember is that the Stuarts insisted in the Divine Right of Kings, they believed God had given them absolute power to rule. Hence, when James II was removed and replaced by a distant relative with limited powers allowed by parliament, it was a good thing for the development of democracy as we know it. It's a pity this new democracy was limited to Protestants only at the time.

I spent ages writing the piece above and nobody's read it.

I read it and I bet a good few other people did too.

After a while, a chara you will begin to understand that people here are not like 'real' friends.

They don't say say thanks when you expect it or sometimes don't even acknowledge replies that might take a lot of time and effort to prepare/compose.

Don't worry. It's a choice you make.

It's your effort that counts and I always believe that a lot more people read and appreciate the stuff than we might think.

Anyway we are not here for the glory (or the money heehe).

Just look at James in America-he's just brilliant.

For the language!

slán

Oliver, a chara,

My apologies for not recognizing what was a very informative piece of historical information that you wrote.

I love learning Irish history right along with the language. Go raibh maith agat to you and everyone else on this board for all they do.

If I ever do forget to thank anyone for their contribution please know that it is not intended.

Slán,

Bradford

Oliver, A Chara,

Tá brón orm. Things have been very hectic here. I DID read your piece and found it VERY interesting. Please forgive the lack of a reply. I read it at work, between patients, and just haven't had the chance to respond.

Alec, go raibh maith agat for the "brilliant" comment, although several teachers in my past would most definitely argue otherwise! I would say "persistent", "stubborn", .....those would be more accurate and universally agreed upon terms!!

Le meas,

James

A Shéamuis, a chara,

I found it very encouraging to learn about the work you are doing for the Irish National Language.

Some people claim that Irish is dead, I assure you this is not the case in Beal Feirste!

Brat Mhuire ort!

As it stands, this group of mine is very small. We are only four in number but I hope to see it grow. We currently meet in a rather popular coffee shop, holding class in a back room. It has already begun to capture the attention of some of the more regular patrons with some expressing more than a passing interest. My next tactic will be to place some posters around town in some of the more public areas such a our two Irish-American Pubs and one restaurant. I want more people but I also don't want to pull them in too late. We're still very much on the ground floor, linguistically and otherwise, so if we're going to fill any empty seats we need to do it early.

Thanks to all of you for the support and encouragement. As I've said before, I wouldn't be doing this if Daltai had not been there to introduce the language to me, to nurture my fledgling interest and, not least, entertain my most basic and naive questions. A million thanks to all of the regulars and not so regulars who continue to keep me focused and challenged. You are the most incredible group of people on the internet.

Le meas,

James

I'm coming in a little late on this thread, but I just finished reading it and wanted to add my thanks to Oliver, Alec and the others who routinely sacrifice their time to illuminate those of us who are still somewhat (or very much) in the dark when it comes to Irish history. I have been reading about Elizabeth I (from an English perspective), and so I have found this contemporary history of Gráinne and Bonnie Prince Charlie fascinating to read. It's the first time I am able to piece together many of the people, places, and battles mentioned above.
May your efforts return to you in blessing ten-fold!
Go raibh mile maith agaibh,
Dawn