mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2002 (July-December) » Asimple problem can anyone help? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

John (cache-mtc-ah02.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.96.167)
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 08:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hello my name is John and I just started Learning Irish by Mícheál Ó Siadhail. I and while I have just started it I think it's great. I was doing fine up to the part about indirect speech and I was wondering if someone here could explain it to me?

In defining "go bhfuil, nach bhfuil" the book says see the lesson, but I am not sure I am getting it. Does "go bhfuil" mean something like "that...is" and "nach bhfuil" mean something like "that...is not."

If I wanted to say, "They say that we are not satisfied," would I say: Deir siad nach bhfuil muid sásta.

Deir sé go bhfuiltear sásta anseo...does this mean "He says that one is/people are content here"?


These are probably stupid questions but I can see by thumbing through the next few lessons that this isn't going away, so can someone help me understand this.

Slán

Seán

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Al Evans (tbtm.org - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Your understanding is correct, as far as it goes. As a conjunction, "go/nach" introduce various kinds of clauses, including "indirect speech" -- "Deir se go/nach...".

However, while "that...is" is the correct translation for "go bhfuil ..." in this context, don't go thinkin' the opposite, that "that...is" always translates to "go bhfuil...". It's not a one-to-one correspondence.

Hope this helps.

--Al Evans

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry (host213-122-15-225.in-addr.btopenworld.com - 213.122.15.225)
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 01:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

John, a chara,

Firstly, may I say that your original question is not stupid at all. As a philosophical point, stupidity can only come from an answer, not a question.

Secondly, Al's reply is correct so I won't fudge the issue, but the answer Al gave will hopefully guide you on towards progressing with your studies.

You've come across a problem area and you've done the sensible thing by asking a question regarding what is an important issue. You're right in thinking that "go..." isn't going to go away - it's an important construction and will have to be mastered in order to proceed.

Don't be afraid to ask - there are many here who are willing and able to help you. Good luck.

Le meas,
Larry.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

John (cache-rk07.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.189.71)
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 04:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks...It is nice to know there are people here that are willing to help.

I had one more question about the lesson but I didn't want to bother anyone about it...all the different words for "there." (Ann, ansin, ansiúd) The latter two I understand but the first I am not sure about.

The reading says that the word "ann" is used when you lack an adjective or adverb(adverbial phrase). Can someone here translate this. The example in the book is: There is a man, "Tá fear ann." Maybe someone can provide some more examples. What I found myself doing was questioning wheather or not I should be putting "ann" in the Translate portion where the word "there" was in the sentence.

Also, does "ann" go out the end of the phrase or the sentence. In the book it goes at the end of the sentence but then these are simple sentences.

Any help would be appreciated.

John

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nicole (147.252.194.105)
Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 06:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

John, a chara,

To help clarify a bit the differences between ann, ansin & ansiud: as you have already gathered, ansin and ansiud are used when you want to locate something definitively in space, such as "there, on the table or there- on the floor" or any other concrete place.

"Ann" on the other hand is used in a somewhat more abstract sense - where in English you would use the word "there" but not actually be locating something in space. As in:

There isn't any bread:
Níl aon arán ann.

There isn't any money.
Níl aon airgead ann.

Of course there are subtleties: if we have been talking about a place, say a library or a shop or what have you, and I say to you,

Tá fear ann

then what I mean is that there is a man in or at that place that we have been talking about - in that situation ann and ansin can become interchangeable. If however I just come out with the statement "Tá fear ann" out of the blue, then the meaning is more abstract "A man exists". Generally "ann" will be used in the more abstract sense.

As you work through the Learning Irish book, you will later discover that technically "ann" means "in it" or "in him" Thus: if I say to you "get some milk from the jug in the fridge" and you have a look and find the jug empty you would say:

Níl aon bainne ann

and you would be saying, "there isn't any milk" or "there's no milk in it" (ie, the jug). If the distinction in that situation between "There isn't any milk in the jug" and "there isn't any milk at all anywhere" were important, you would have to add something more:

Níl aon bainne ann in aon áit (there's no milk anywhere)
Níl aon bainne sa chruiscín (there's no milk in the jug)

Hopefully this will help a bit - "ann" can be a slippery character & you will find you get a better feel for it the more you learn. It's meaning can be dependent on context. To start with however, I would use it in any situation where the word "there" in English is not being used to locate something in a concrete, defined place. Ansin and Ansiud can only be used when you are talking about someplace you can point at or arrive at.




Best of luck,
Nicole

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James (wcs1.norfolk.nipr.mil - 198.26.132.101)
Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Nicole, A chara,

That has to be the best summation of "ann" that I've ever read. Thanks so much for your input. I'm new at this language and hadn't completely grasped the usage of ann until now. (OK, maybe I haven't "completely" grasped it, but I'm far closer than before!!)

Go raibh mile maith agat,

Le meas,

James

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nicole (147.252.194.105)
Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 05:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James,a chara,

Glad to help - I'm well aware of how baffling Irish can sometimes seem, particularly at the beginning! It occurred to me later that there's another usage of "ann" that you may run into: the phrase "in ann" meaning "able to":

Táim in ann snámh (I am able to swim)
Táim in ann an Ghaeilge a labhairt go líofa. (I can speak Irish fluently!)

You'll get nowhere trying to translate that one literally! Just thought you might find it useful to know - I can't remember which lesson it's in in Learning Irish.

Mise le meas,
Nicole

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James (209.48.182.219)
Posted on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Actually, I was trying, just the other day, to figure out how to say "able to." In Spanish it's one verb that pretty much covers all bases (when conjugated correctly, that is) but Irish was killing me!!

Thanks,

James

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

John (206-13-102-132.ded.pacbell.net - 206.13.102.132)
Posted on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 07:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes...sorry for haven taking so long to respond, thank you for explaining that it was a big help..

John

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

johnlprather (cache-mtc-ah02.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.96.167)
Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 01:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Newcomer, sort of experimentng

Some earlier posting gave a very helpful posting in re "in ann" This is much like "is féidir liom"??

Please excuse any formatting error for the time being.

I am supposed to sign this??

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Nicole (revenant.ucd.ie - 137.43.1.29)
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hello newcomer!

The difference between "in ann" and "is feidir liom" in is not enormous - much like the difference in English between "I am able to" and "I can". That is to say, they are largely interchangeable. The phrase "in ann" should be used if you want to emphasise the fact that you posess the physical or mental capacity to do something, rather than that you are simply willing to do it.

Tá mé in ann snámh - I am able, I know how, to swim.

Really the difference is quite subtle and not worth worrying about too much. With the above example in fact, one could just as easily say "Is feidir liom snámh" and mean precisely the same thing, since it's not the sort of thing one would say unless one was physically capable of doing it! On the other hand:

Is feidir liom dul go dtí an siopa anois - I can go to the shop now. (ie I am willing, have the time etc. to go)

Táim in ann dul go dtí an siopa - I am able to go to the shop (ie I have the physical capacity to get to the shop)

The latter isn't something you would say unless your ability to go to the shop were somehow in doubt - say, if you had a broken leg. Using "in ann" in that situation would emphasise the fact that you felt capable of walking (or driving or whatever) regardless.

Hope that helps a bit an isn't too garbled. Best of Luck

Mise le meas,
Nicole

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.


©Daltaí na Gaeilge