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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2002 (July-December) » I have a quetions about possessions « Previous Next »

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Oded (ras2-p187.jlm.netvision.net.il - 62.0.151.187)
Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 06:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

In spoken Irish Gaelic, I recently saw that one uses the possesives with the definite article (an, na) before the first noun instead of the second noun (as grammatical rules say).

Are there any nuanses done by that or is it just something done with no rules or no intentions during the course of speech?

Thank you

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Oded (ras3-p235.jlm.netvision.net.il - 62.0.146.235)
Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Maybe I should demonstrate:

Ar an mbrat urlair instead of ar mbrat an urlair.

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Ó Dúill (p392.as1.qkr.cork1.eircom.net - 159.134.181.136)
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ar an mbrat urláir = On the (floor/stair) carpet
Ar bhrat an urláir = On the carpet of the floor

So take your pick.
A few things to note.

"Ar an" adds an urú (ie m before a b, n before a g)
"Ar" on its own only adds a "h" or "séimhiú"
urlár = floor in normal form
urláir = floor in normal pl. form and in genitive form (sing. and pl.)
A noun can go into the genitive when it follows another noun.
Any more questions, fire away!
le meas,
Colm.

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oded (ras5-p40.jlm.netvision.net.il - 62.0.148.40)
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 02:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, why is it AR AN MBRAT URLAIR, is it because it has a different meaning, cause structurally it should have only one way - Ar bhrat an urlair. (Or am I wrong then?)

And what about something else I found in a story:

1. Ar an noimead sin na firinne and

2. (Tharraing siadsan) an fuílleach teada.

3. an chráin seabhaic. ???


thanks in advance and for what u have already posted.

p.s. I tried using the fada letters but unfortunately it writes "& and an accute".

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Ó Dúill (p217.as1.qkr.cork1.eircom.net - 159.134.180.217)
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well there are two words/phrases for the english word carpet.
Brat urláir and
cairpéad

Brat translates in that context as "covering"

Therefore
Ar an mbrat urláir = On the floor covering
Ar bhrat an urláir = On the covering of the floor

So it makes no difference to the meaning what way one says it.

Take.
"An Chráin Seabhaic" = An (ageing/large) female hawk
Cráin = (ageing/large) female
Seabhac = hawk
Secabhaic = hawk (gen. form)
This case is different.
To say Cráin an Sheabhaic would mean "The large/ageing feamle of the hawk". And that makes no sense at all.
But its graet to see some interesting questions like that,
happy learning, and any more questions, just post away.
Yours,
Colm.

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Ó Dúill (p217.as1.qkr.cork1.eircom.net - 159.134.180.217)
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

sorry that would be
Cráin na Sheabhaic - seabhac is a fem. noun

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Ó Dúill (p217.as1.qkr.cork1.eircom.net - 159.134.180.217)
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Also see above
Seabhaic = gen form of hawk
without the C
Sorry about this
I'm asleep!! lol

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oded (ras1-p34.jlm.netvision.net.il - 62.0.144.34)
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 04:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks again, but what about "an fuilleach teada" and "Ar an noimead sin na firinne"?

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Al Evans (tbtm.org - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks again, but what about "an fuilleach teada" and "Ar an noimead sin na firinne"?

Seems to me like "an fuilleach teada" must mean "the rest of the rope" or something similar, but I think that should be "an fuilleach teide".

"Ar an noimead sin na firinne" means "in that moment of truth".

--Al Evans

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oded (ras1-p477.jlm.netvision.net.il - 62.0.145.237)
Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Meaning that the grammatical instructions about building a possession in Gaeilge is not that correct - one finds an/na before the first noun (and even before both nouns) and not just before the second noun.


And it's "an fuilleach teada" - it's from the book "duil".

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Ó Dúill (p388.as1.qkr.cork1.eircom.net - 159.134.181.132)
Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hey - a man must sleep lol
It is a langauge and so not everything goes by the rules.
A hOded i see you are using netvision the Israeli ISP. Where are you are from. I lived for a while in Nahariya.
All the best,
Colm.

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oded (ras2-p79.jlm.netvision.net.il - 62.0.151.79)
Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jerusalem.

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