A Chairde uilig,
While reading through the Chicago Tribue, ironically enough, "the Saint Patrick's Day edition" I came across an article by Tom Mudd entitled " Ireland debates speaking Irish" (Section 1-World, page 5)
The article referred to a talk given by Mr. Edward Walsh, the founding president of the University of Limerick, to a group of primary school teachers last month.(Mr. Walsh is described in the article as one of the country's leading educators.) Mr. Walsh called for the abolition of compulsory Irish language lessons in schools, on the basis that they were ineffective ( as so few teenagers can speak the language after studying it for 14 years) and that the time spent on Irish language instruction detracted from the teaching of modern foreign languages and Science!Mr. Walsh is in favour of having schools where Irish is the only language spoken and other schools whereby Irish is not even offered on the Curriculum.

Luckily Mr. Mudd also referred to Mr. Pádraig O Héalaí, dean of the faculty of Celtic studies at the National University of Ireland in Galway, who stated that the real issue was not the wholescale abandonment of the Irish language but how to develop a more effective instructional methodology.

What do you think?
Does the teaching of Irish detract from other more important subjects?
Should the Irish language be unceremoniously ejected from the National Educational System?
Isn't it ironic now that the U.K. has finally realised that it is a multicultural, multilingual society it is championing and investing in its indigenous languages while some people in Ireland want to do away with ours?
Should we allow our language, so long put down by the ruling classes as being the language of peasants, yet holding the oldest surviving written literature in Western Europe, to be erased from our school curriculum?
Isn't it ironic that "one of Ireland's leading educators" is proposing such a course of action when "Celtic Studies/Irish Studies" is one of the fastest growing disciplines in the academic world, especially in the U.S.?

I have very strong feelings on this issue as I am sure most of you have. I have expounded on my own ideas regarding this article in the "Gaeilge amháin" forum. Please pay me a visit there and respond to my arguments.

A Sheosaimhín a chara,

Begrudgers. The world's full of 'em.

What other more important subjects? More imortant in what way precisely? More conducive to the vested interests of corporate profiteers determined to 'standardise' the planet? I could rant on this for hours... suffice to say, I'm with you. The attitude behind fatuous remarks such as those you have reported is what I find truly offensive. Must go check your lán-Ghaeilge posts.....

Síos leis na 'begrudgers'!
Fintan

After messing up the Irish-language curriculum to the point where the kids hate the subject, they want to divert the pupils' time and attention to "practical" subjects that will do the same anyway. The kids are already getting a great education -- the emergence of the Celtic Tiger economy proves that: So just where is the problem? They would have them learn computer languages that will be dead long before Irish and do nothing to enrich their lives. Humanist values need to be inculcated, not philistinism.

At least Walsh is in favor of Irish-medium schools, which is a sign that he is not a hopeless case (b'shin mar a cheap mé i ndiaidh do theachtaireacht Ghaeilge a léamh). Rather he seems to be simply frustrated. More carefully thought-out solutions should be proposed to people like that. (Having all schools be Irish-medium, as you advocate on the Irish-only board, is my own opinion as well. Facility in the language seems to the best cure for feelings against it. That and fostering positive attitudes instead of negative ones.)

He's also just written a book about it.

I'm a student myself presently, trying to find a way to learn the language on my own time while still juggling everything else. I find it both sad and deeply ironic that, while we Irish Americans struggle to maintain a link with the heritage of which we are so proud, those privileged to live in our ancestral land try to erase that beloved opportunity to learn their own language. Would that Irish was offered over here! Perhaps, if Mr. Walsh does not care to have the Irish language be a part of the main curriculum anymore, he would consider sending those teachers over here to us. We'd be glad of the opportunity.

Dear Erin,
I hate to make generalisations but you are a typical Irish American who just jumped into the deep end without standing back and looking at the facts beforehand.
The Free State made the mistake of making Irish a compulsory subject. Students were beaten for not speaking it just like the British beat them FOR speaking it. Everyone likes to be a radical and nobody like to do something they are forced into. Children learned Irish in school but 10 feet outside the classroom literally NOBODY could speak it. Students became to hate the language i mean HATE. This has been the case for as long as Irish has been on the curriculum. The concentration should be on those would like to learn Irish. Also it should be put on making Irish a medium for the general population. Children will not learn Irish if when they come home from school the parents are English speakers only.
Some things to think about:
Firstly: Irish is a language like any other. That is very cleraly spelled out in Guthanna in Éag/Voices Silenced le James McCloskey ISBN 1 901176 24 X. Irish is among the 10% of languages that will survive into the next century. There are many other languages that far worse off than Irish.
Secondly: Erin have you ever been to Ireland? Do you know what it is like? It is also hard for us to mantain our cultural identity on this island as we move into a more inclusive and multicultural European society. So spare us your talk of the monumential ancestorial struggle. To be honost it makes me sick and it is quite selfish.
Is mise,
le meas,
Colm.

A Cholm, a chara,

Tá tú ar an ionsaí arís, bail ó Dhia ort. Tuigim duit, ach mholfainn a bheith cairéiseach le cairde. Is gann go leor atá cairde na Gaeilge cheana féin.

Erin, a chara, I feel that you are quite correct in condemning the Irish people for the way that they have mishandled the Irish Language over the last six, or so, generations.

On the other hand, if we study the matter thoroughly, there have been advances, some, not enough, but some that should give us a lead on where we should be going.

One place that we should be going is into forums like this where the Irish people would see in the bare light of day, what others might think of what the Irish have and have NOT done for the language. In a nutshell, they have 'irelandized' it. It's there alright, in the constitution as any other relic of aspiration might be.

The young childless one-dog-couple down at the fountain now, more than likely speak English to each other in their private and public moments. Any children that they may have, might just live their lives and die in Ireland having worked for Nokia, or some such, driven in their own pecunary mission. At the end of their days they will say their prayer and breath their last in English, never having allowed Irish into the inner most part of their existance. What were they, or what were their lives? If by being born on an island between Wales and America, they can call themselves Irish and get away with it, they probably have convinced themselves.

If they are not reminded of their needs as a people, it must be brought home to them, for without the reminder there can be NO change. This is where Erin's and other such comments are relevant.

While some positive things have begun to happen over the last score plus years, it must be acknowledged that the old scorn of any Irish language presence can still be felt. Ed Walsh and co., e.g. that drunk in The Irish Times, will never go away, but I see their importance in bringing the matter up for discussion.

In short, one sentence, the English speakers of Ireland are not being addressed in a worthwhile, clear and persuasive manner about what they ought to change, how they may do so and when it can all be done.
While I don't regard them as my domain, I realise their longterm importance.

There are other sections of Irish people who need to straighten some things out for themselves. The Irish speakers who feel that they must keep their mind, heart and working lives based in English. That is to say, they speak Irish to Seosamh, or whoever else the nearest 'fanatic' may be, but come Monday or the trip home, they go back to the 'real' world, which is, for them, English. These are the people of the halfway world of DoublinIreland. They have a double life, based in English with a minor Irish dimension. These I regard as my domain and find that they may be worth some time. They may have a problem of impracticality with one Ollscoil Ghaeilge, despite the fact that we have some eight Ollscoil Bhéarla. These eight take some ££££££££ per annum and nobody blinks an eye. When another magnificent block of engineering is built we don't hear murmurings about the amount of money being spent on the cost of an English university education.

>>> Scríobh Colm
Do you know what it is like? It is also hard for us to mantain our cultural identity on this island as we move into a more inclusive and multicultural European society.


Tá tú ag déanamh seafóide a Cholm. Breathnaigh in aon siopa nuachta agus inis dúinn cá bhfuil Le Monde, Der Spiegel srl. i dteangacha eile na hEorpa. Ireland is an English backwater that likes to think of itself as a culterally relevant English speaking dynasty. Give us a break! Even the students of 'Modern' languages in 3rd level are loath to speak anything other than English. If anyone wants to be bored with endless English, come to this multiculteral Ireland. Tá roinnt bheag scoláirí óga ollscoile atá sásta snámh in aghaidh easa agus an Ghaeilge a labhairt sa timpeall. Níl sé éasca orthu ag an aois a bhfuil siad, ach déanann siad é. It's also refreshing to see workers from Latvia and Lithuania, Zululand etc. arriving of late. These are the only people to bring something worthwhile with them. I can recognise the other locals because of their fake English accents! An dream sclábhaithe!


>>> Dúirt Colm :
So spare us your talk of the monumential ancestorial struggle. To be honost it makes me sick and it is quite selfish.


I note the moving of two words from their context and the addition of a third. However, something that Erin said seems to be getting at the bone. Cuimhnímis gurbh iad Gaeil Mheiriceá a d'fhág talamh fúinn féin nuair a d'imigh siad in éadan a dtola siar, gur mhinic iad ag cothú ar fhan sa bhaile agus gur mhinic iad chun tosaigh i ngluaiseacht na saoirse riamh anall. Is fiú rud éigin an méid sin. Is fiú níos ná gnúsacht gan taca é, a Cholm. Mholfainn duit gan a bheith anuas ar Ghaeil Mheiriceá mar nuair a chuimhíonn tú air, cé eile a sheas linn, gan trácht ar chuid díbh sin sa bhaile a bhí chomh nimhe neanta inár gcoinne? Táimid ar ais arís ag Meisceoir an Times agus ag ár gcara Ed.

Tá tú óg coipthe a Cholm agus tuigim go bhfuil do chroí san áit cheart, ach ní miste sinn an cloigeann a choinneáil i gcónaí sa chás a bhfuilimid.

Maith thú, a Sheamuis

A Choilm, tóg go bog é!

This makes the second posting on this site that disparages those of us with Irish ancestry simply because we feel an affection for the culture and the language of our familial predecessors. I find this attitude patently offensive and on the brink of discriminatory. Is my desire to learn less of a desire because I am an American? Is my desire to see it maintained and preserved less worthy because I don't have an Irish birth certificate? I think not, but obvioulsy there are those who think otherwise.

What I find amazing is that I have travelled the world, literally. Panama, El Salvador, Bolivia, Uruguay, Argentina, Venezuela, Mexico, Zimbabwe, Swaziland, Malawi, Korea, Japan, Spain, France, Germany and Ireland. I've lived and worked in most and vistited others. In only one, France, have I encountered the protectionist attitude toward language that I have seen displayed by some on this site. In most countries the attitude is quite the contrary. Any attempt, no matter how meager, is greatly appreciated and welcomed by the local population. What makes Ireland, and apparently some of the Irish, so different in this regard? You don't OWN this language you were merely fortunate enough to be born in the land where it originated.

My people left Ireland as did my wife's people. Mine left quite some time ago prior to the mid-1800's. My wife's on the other hand left early in this century. These are facts that niether she nor I can change. We were born of American parents and are fully Americanized. Our fathers and their fathers before them have fought for this great nation we call ours and she and I both have stood in the ranks of its military. We work, we pay taxes (quite a bit of taxes, I might add), we vote and we attend mass (not as regularly as we should) and we participate in our community. In short we do all the things that the average American does. Why does that make us bad people? Is it our ancestors' flight from famine and poverty that makes us bad? Is it the fact that we haven't "come home" to reclaim and regain our Irish-ness? What exactly is it that we're doing that so offends people like Colm and Cailin?

I'm an American. I speak English as my native tongue. I also speak Spanish, fluently. I don't speak it because I have hispanic heritage, live in a "Spanish-tacht" or for any other reason than that I studied it and then immersed myself in it. To date, I have never received negative feedback from any native speaker for my efforts. Now, in an effort to further broaden my linguistic horizons, I am attempting to learn Irish. With the help of Daltai, Seaosamh, Aonghus, Fintan and countless others, I am beginning to get a grasp, albeit a very weak grasp as yet, of this most beautiful and complex language.

My last trip to Ireland was spent, intentionally, in the Gaeltacht regions. This year, I'll attend one of the immersion weekends with Daltai and within two years I'll be back in Ireland for a visit. That visit, like the last, will be spent as immersed as is possible in the Irish language and I'll speak as much as I can with whomever will listen. If you happen to meet me, (or any other like-minded American, just in case you're missing my centralist illustration of a broader fact)you'll be faced with two choices. You can speak with me, correct me, teach me and in the process advance the language you call your own or you can ignore me, ridicule me and try to make me feel stupid. If you choose the second option, please don't think you've gained a competitive edge. I'm an American, I'm used to being ignored, ridiculed and made to feel stupid. But, as an American, I've never let that get in my way!

Another point worth investigating is the origin of all this "America Bashing" by our Irish cousins. Was it America that punished the Irish for speaking "as gaeilge?" No--I believe it was the English. ( We got so tired of them we finally kicked them off of our "Island.") Was it America that punished the Irish for speaking English? No---I believe it was the Irish. Where in the devil do we as Americans get caught up in this? If you feel the need to lash out at someone do so toward those who are at the root cause of your dilemma, not at those who support your position and cause. Focus your energies on the English and condemn those Irish who refuse to embrace the language you call yours.

This has been written between appointments and as I read, and review and contemplate, I find my anger and frustration rising. So, I'll make this one last comment before I rupture a "cultural aneurysm" and get banned from this site for life:

Where in God's Green Earth would we be today if it weren't for America? We give more in financial aid to poor countries than any other country on the planet. We've defended Europe----TWICE. We brought the Soviet Union to its financial and military knees without firing a shot. We currently stand the gap between tyranny and democracy on the last hard border of the cold war between North and South Korea. We led the efforts to stop genocide in the Balkans (protecting Muslims, I might add). We are the lead nation in the African Crisis Response Initiative. Now, we're heavily involved in protecting freedom and attacking terrorism in Afghanistan and beyond. What makes us so &^%$# bad! We're not perfect, but we are a damn sight better than most of your other options! Name for me one other country that people are dying, literally, to get INTO not OUT of---Can't do it--can you?!?!

Fnally, I'll say this. Listen up, Colm and Cailin and all you other "Unhappy Irish-persons" ----I'm gonna learn Irish and what's more I'm gonna speak it every chance I get to and with anyone willing to listen. If this bothers you, if it poses some threat to your identity, if in any way you don't like it be sure to let me know. It won't stop me but it will afford be one beautiful opportunity to tell you to kiss my RED, WHITE and BLUE arse.

Is fear gaeilge briste na bearla cliste, after all!!!

Le meas,

James

A Thiarna Dé, James, tá a lán scríobhtha ansin agat agus tharraing tú aníos ceisteanna casta coigilteacha a dtarraingeodh na freagraí idir chith agus bhailc orainn.

Your long posting is alarming enough for its content, but what really puts mo chroí i mo bhéal is the answers to your questions -- If they were to be written out for public view and comment by, say, myself. There's been quite a bit of that in this Forum after the 'Unhappy Irish Person' (who I hope is now becoming happy again through Irish) posted, in The Irish Times letters section and in the Irish-American papers. In one issue of the Irish Voice I saw they had to give two full pages to letters discussing Irish anti-Americanism.

I count it a privilege to occasionally answer the 'American-bashing' you refer to. We should do it much more often. I've traveled less than you have but my background is Asian Studies and I can also put things into a wider perspective. Americans are about the most generous and friendliest people on earth and, go deimhin, we are often criticized for some aspect or another of this by others, including the Irish.

Erin's comment, based on her experience of working so hard to learn the language from scratch while most Irish people seem indifferent is understandable. At times it can be sad even when Irish people work for the language -- and succeed -- if it reminds me of people here in America working to hold on to their cultures and languages: French-medium schools in New England, after-school Chinese programs, adult evening school classes in Dutch or Irish or Polish. It's a shame that people who value Irish language and the culture it embodies are reduced to that status, immigrants in their own land, as it were. But that's where history has left them. Níl aon leigheas ar an scéal ach dearcadh dearfa a ghlacadh agus dul ar aghaidh.

Those Irish and Irish-Americans/Canadians/Australians who learn Irish well and use it are a minority in either case. So we have to stick together. And I might as well mention that it is wrongheaded to adopt a dismissive view -- as some non-Irish connoisseurs of the language do -- toward the efforts of Irish people outside the Gaeltacht to develop the language. The latter have done a tremendous job building a growing Irish-medium school system. The closer we work with those people, and the closer they and we work with people in the Gaeltacht, the better. The synergy of working off each other's efforts is the best way to go.

The above is the uncorrected version of my posting. Please excuse any choppiness or mispellings. Tá 'fhios agam cá bhfuil siad.

A James,
As I recall, I have already explained my position to you, non? Just incase you have forgotten i have copied and pasted it at the bottom of this post. You are the one that won't let sleeping dogs lie. The "I'm an unhappy Irish person" discussion is OVER. Compreda?
I see you are getting hot under the collar. Please don't make this forum political, toisc ag deireadh an lae is iad glas, bán, agus oráiste na dathanna is fhearr a Sheamuis.
A Seaosamh
Bhuel, conneáil é mé múscailte. *gáire* :) Im just saying funds should not be wasted on those you would rather stay monolingual.
Ná bíodh imní ort. Beidh mé.
le meas,
Colm, Muimhneach óig leis an nGaeilge ina chroí.

------------------------------------------------
By Colm Ó Dúill (p262.as1.qkr.cork1.eircom.net - ) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 11:56 am:

James,
Far from it. Americans(or anybody else) who do speak Irish don't offend me. I rather envy it. Its the Irish born attitude towards Gaeilge that annoys me. I have more correspondants/friends outside Éire that enjoy conversing in the language than inside. The latter figure being NÁID. And thats both a shame and a disgrace.
No I dont hate Americans. Its that superiority complex and what the nation stands for that really gets me going. Is it safe to let George Bush be a figure head?!
Richard,
I cant say anything but nice comeback to you. Fair points. Maybe we would still be in the Industrial age had it not been for American advances. Cogar, Bill céard? : )
Is meas,
le meas,
Colm.

By Colm Ó Dúill (p841.as2.cork1.eircom.net - ) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 03:03 pm:

A Liam,
Bhuel, níl fhios agam faoi Chailín, ach níl Ghaeilge mo theanga laethúil toisc táim níos mó ábalta caint a choinneáil le duine trí Bhéarla. Tá sé mar gheall air (go bhfuil sé d'fhoghlaigh)? go dona i scoil. Sin é fhahb an Roinn Oideachas agus Eolaíochta.
Oifig An tAire: 00-353-(0)1-8892276
www.education.ie
Maolgháire!
Is mise,
le meas,
Colm.


By Colm Ó Dúill (p841.as2.cork1.eircom.net - ) on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 03:16 pm:

A thiarcais! Rinne mé dearmad.
"As you can see most of us Irish and American speakers on the Daltai forum did not grow up in Gaeltachts and yet Irish is our daily Language so ye have no excuses".
Táim i gconaí i gCarraig Uí Leighin NÓ "CARRIGALINE" i nGalltacht an Chorcaí. Níl Gaeltacht é.
Slán tamall,
Colm.

I meant:
Dúirt Seaosamh
"Tá tú ar an ionsaí arís" Bhuel, conneáil é mé múscailte. *gáire* :) Im just saying funds should not be wasted on those you would rather stay monolingual.
Dúirt Aonghus:
"A Choilm, tóg go bog é!" Ná bíodh imní ort. Beidh mé.

Go raibh maith agat a Sheosaimh for stepping in. Agus, mar a dúirt tú "beith cairéiseach le cairde".
Colm.

I will once again respond as an attacked American - I don't care whether the Irish teach their children the language or not - I rather suspect that they will not , as many of their choices with respect to culture are on the weak side. I will say, however, that you should not bash Americans, as, without us, you would not be speaking your beloved English over there, but instead German - you chose to 'sit out' the war, while Americans took care of your friend Hitler, with many, many Irish-American lives lost. So if you want to bash America, do so in German, or just shut the hell up.

A Risteard a chara,

Tog é go bog é............. I know where you're coming from, truly, but I must point something out...........

I feel glad that there are so many passionate Americans and others (myself included) determined to prevent the historical tragedy of the destruction of the Gaelic languages from becoming an irreversible reality.

However, there is a tendency I have noticed [clearly not limited purely to US citizens] for some of us to become just a 'smidgín' overwrought when someone else casts real or perceived aspersions at our respective nationalities. This achieves nothing in the short or long term, not even a real sense of cathartic relief for the venter-of-spleen.

In particular, I feel that attention should be drawn to your comments [in your last post]
......"you chose to 'sit out the war'" (So did the US for most of WWI. And Ireland's decision to remain 'neutral' in WWII was very different to that of say the Swiss.)
....... "while Americans took care of your friend Hitler" (where to start on this one? The Allies were more than just the US you know, my fellow Australians played a MASSIVE role in the European, North African and SE Asian campaigns...AND....I don't know how many Irish-folk would have considered Hitler their 'friend'..I know, I know ye were just being sarcastic, but see how easily sarcasm is misconstrued when in a written form?).

Having said all this, I would like to re-iterate my well-known contempt and utter rancour for ANYONE, inside or outside Ireland who disparages the efforts made at this site, and all the others like it, to preserve and propagate one of the most beautiful of all human languages and one of the oldest extant literary traditions on Earth. Herr Walsh may have cogent reasons for his opinions, but his contemptuous lack of regard or care in the timing of their publication only further reinforces my original gut-instinct appellation for him...... 'begrudger'.

Le meas,
'Fintan'

Agreed Fintan, the US did sit out most of WWI, (and Ireland, or what was to become Ireland - busy with its own petty internal strife); I can only say that in WWI, there was no clear monster such as Hitler, just European politics as usual - we basicaly jumped in to bail out our ancestral friend England, which would have of course included Ireland. And it was not just America in WWII, it was many other good citizens from many other countries (would Australia have been so quick to join absent its lonely proximity to Japan ?).

As for Ireland's reasons for neutrality - well, there is no excuse for it when one considers the true evil that was being faced (or for Switzerland, or Portugal,eyc).

And I should point out that no one is taking continuous swipes at Australia; nor are Australian taxpayers carrrying the freight for wiping the butt of every snotty nosed little back water country where some little injustice is being played out.

Now a moment to list the scientific and social achievements of Ireland.
.
.
.( I know, that's a cheap shot, all the smart Irish left during the pratai dubh )
.
Now a moment to list the military achievements of the Irish Army, and the countries they've liberated from tyranny
.
.
.

And Fintan, no real sarcasm intended about Hitler's friends - Hitler found a lot more friends per capita in Ireland than he did in America or Australia, and a much friendlier place to operate. de Valera's politically motivated neutrality, whatever its supposed intent, created just sch a place. WWII was a clear example of the dictum "if you're not for us, then you're against us".

I will never sit by and be condemned by those protected by, and using the freedoms paid for by, American blood and lives (and others). Let them get off there lazy, whining Irish butts and do something constructive - seems a shame that a century ago our ancestors had to work so hard in America to overcome the stereotype of the Irish being drunken louts, 'too lazy to work, too stupid to learn'. Perhaps they're working a wee bit too hard to perpetuate that stereotype in the old country.

I feel so sorry for the Irish school children; poor things, they had to learn a subject they didn't like - what shameless child abuse. Maybe they should change the curriculum to lunch, football, horse racing and religious bigotry - somrthing they can really get their teeth into.

What's wrong you native Irish, no response ? You can dish it out, but not take it ? Perhaps you had to find an American to read it to you , since you 'really hated' reading in school, and couldn't do it any more once you were ten feet from the class room. Or maybe you're just watching the races.

>>Now a moment to list the military achievements of the Irish Army, and the countries they've liberated from tyranny

This ignores the fact that the Irish Army have a fine record of peace keeping duty in
1) Congo
2) Lebanon
3) Cyprus

And if we are going to start a tit for tat countries liberated list:-
How about the following (democratically elected governments interfered with by the USA)
1) Chile
2) Grenada
3) Nicaragua
....

I don't subscribe to the philosophy that the US is the great Satan, but neither are the US or Western Countries all blue eyed boys.

What exactly was the extent of Hitler's "operations" in Ireland? There was some communication with the IRA, yes - but De Valera was busy fighting them at the time. Any German agents caught - and most were - were interned.
And it is easy to say that Hitler was evil, with the benefit of hindsight. But the UK allowed him to march into Austria and Czechslovakia, and as I recall, the US entered the war after it was attacked by the Japanese.

Sorry, but this kind of black & white arguing won't wash.

Yes, Europe has got some work to do to get it's act together, and yes, the US has helped Western Europe to become a more democratic and stable place. But the fact remains that the US and Western Europe have also interfered other places to the detriment of the local population.

I certainly did not intend my comments to carry us into a discussion regarding WWI/WWII, potato famine etc. My only point was that a lady commented on her view of Irish in the schools of Ireland. Her only reward for her input was to be called a "typical American" and her comments were rapidly dismissed. Well, that ruffled my feathers. Hence, my comments and defense of being American and defense of non-Irish learning, or attempting to learn, Irish. My only point was that just because we are Americans does not mean we don't have opinions or concerns and it doesn't mean that those opinions or concerns are of less value.

A Choilm,

It's tough to NOT make something political when the terms "Typical American" are used. There is no "Typical American" just as there is no "Typical Irishman." The lady had a comment on an issue that was placed in this forum for ANYONE to comment upon. Her reward for giving a flip?---She's called a "Typical American" and told she hasn't "looked at the facts." Undeserving comment, don't you think? Why are her opinions or thoughts any less valid simply because of the origin of her birth certificate?

Many Americans of Irish descent, and I would venture to say MOST of them that frequent this web site, virtually devour anything and everything we can get our hands on about Ireland, Irish History and Irish Culture. We are quite aware of the school issues of which you speak, thank you very much. We may not have lived it, but we CAN read and we ARE capable of forming opinions and having thoughts based upon what we read.

I'm sorry as hell that Irish children were faced with difficulties vis a vis the Irish Language. Honestly, I am. But, please, don't think for one minute they are the only school kids forced to learn things that weren't reinforced at home, forced to learn things that contradicted things at home. It happens all the time in every country. We, as Americans, or as just plain old individuals who all went to school once upon a time, can in some way, identify with the plight of the Irish language in your country's school system. Hell, we've got kids here in the U.S. that graduate High School who can't read, write or speak English. That's not an exageration, it's FACT, and we're doing nothing about it as a nation.

A Richard,

Tone it down, buddy. You're making great generalizations and attacking the one country, and the people of that country that EVERYONE on this web site seems to care about. By making generalized disparaging comments you are falling prey to the very fault that got this issue spun up in the first place. Relax. Don't perpetuate the "Ugly American" persona by baiting and instigating. I do not want anyone confusing your attacks with my position.


A Chairde,
I apologize for starting another version of the "Unhappy Irishperson" thread. That was certainly not my intent. I am very proud to be an American and would not trade that birthright for anything. But, having said that, I absolutely LOVE Ireland, and my Irish heritage and cannot abide being dismissed out of hand simply because I carry an American birth certificate. (Actually, it's a State Department certificate, but that's a whole story in and of itself.) This web site has been INVALUABLE and I am incredibly grateful to all who perpetuate its purpose. Without your efforts and guidance my butchery of pronunciation would be far worse than it is now.

Le meas,

James

A Aonghus,

Fair points. Well stated. I have the utmost respect for work done by soldiers of any nation, having been one for the bulk of my adult life. Also, having been involved in "nation building" or "foreign internal defense" training, I can fully appreciate the "gray-ness" of these issues. My time in Latin America was certainly an eye opener in this regard. Your comments are dead on. Well stated.

Le meas,

James

As said by Padraig Pearse, "Tir gan Téanga, tir gan anam"
Irish needs to be a part of the school curriculum, they didn't decide freely not to speak it and I'm very suspicious of the character of anyone who wants it removed.

Im sorry but this is getting WAY out of hand.
A Ricard, tóg bóg é go trom. "attacked American" Nonone attacked America or Americans on this post! A Dhia you are living down to your name! The only country i can see being attacked is OURland, Éire. What amazes me is that you were arguing the case that you were Irish and now you are mocking your homeland and roots.
"without us, you would not be speaking your beloved English over there, but instead German" This isnt an episode of 'Friends' Who said anything about beloved, I rather enjoy speaking German. "So if you want to bash America, do so in German" Ich will. Du bist das groß, dick , und amerikanisch Zwitter! Bist du glücklich nun? Nazi Germany fell 60 years ago but i can't resist the tempetation to say: EIN DEUTSCHLAND, EIN EUROPÄ, und EIN EURO!
"and Ireland, or what was to become Ireland - busy with its own petty internal strife"
Ireland did not exist in WWI. We we part of the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Ireland. Get your facts straight. Do you call looking for home rule petty? We were caught between playing our part in Europa and trying to free our country. Thousands of Irishmen DIED on Flanders Fields. D.I.A.
American didnt care about what happened to Europa in WW2.
Let ME point something out. Not to mention those lives lost in the Beligian Congo and Cyprus, 46, yes FOURTY SIX IRISH UN PEACEKEEPERS lost there lives for peace in Lebanon. 46 people in 21 years of service. "Let them get off there lazy, whining Irish butts and do something constructive" Is 46 dead enough? Never EVER talk of "snotty nosed little back water country" again!
Iosa Chríost, if DEV had not kept Ireland neutral she would have died during the war. You hardly expect a nation of 18 years of age to protect itself against the might of the Reich, its Luftwaffe and its Wehrmacht.
"religious bigotry" Do you really want to put the clock back to the 70's and its VERY bloody sundays? What about Americas racial bigotry against the coloured population?
And as well Richard NEVER EVER mock the Irish education system. It ranks one of the best in the world.

James,
Why o why o why does it always come back to same out old argument about the "origin of...birth certificate"s??
"don't think for one minute they are the only school kids forced to learn things that weren't reinforced at home, forced to learn things that contradicted things at home"
Did i say that? No, I didn't.

I love my Ireland and I love my EU. We have our problems like anywhere else but this is one fu**ing brilliant proud little nation. So when you feel like letting your anger out on somewhere make sure its somewhere your size. You only entered the war because of Peral Harbour.
And please dont talk of americas input into world peace because to be honost yee FU**ED UP Palestine, Lebanon and the whole of the Middle East. So when you think of your stars and stripes at night think of the Palestinians without homes because some poxy arrogant little Jewish Israeli in a Sherman tank, paid for by Americans decided to have some fun.
Danke Schön.

Bhí mé i nGaillimh aréir ag an dráma 'Cré na Cille' le scór mac léinn as Luimneach. Shiúil mé mórchuid Leath Mogha idir an dá linn agus tá mé anocht anseo faoi iontas ag an rachmall uilig go léir a thionscain aon duine óg amháin ar an suíomh aoibhinn suaimhneach seo, Daltaí na Gaeilge.

A Cholm, a bhóchaill, tá tú ag déanamh an diabhail orainn go léir le barr spraoi polaitíochta. Bheadh sé go deas dá scríobhfá ríomhphost chuig Erin agus a rá léi, go bog míntláith, go gcuideoidh tú léi ina cuid Gaeilge. Thig leis an duine mórán maitheasa agus gannchuid dochair a dhéanamh le haon fhocal amháin cairdis. Tá tú féin óg agus tá sise óg. Cén dochar a dhéanfadh sé? Tabhair faoi deara nár scríobh sí ar ais ina dhiaidh sin. D'fhéadfadh sí a bheith gortaithe agat. Bí go deas cairdiúil leis an duine eile agus tú ar an ríomhaire, óir an té a bhfuilimid grod nó gairgeach leis inniu, níl a fhios againn conas tá an bhróg ag luí air sa saol aige féin in aon chor.

A Chairde go léir,

If those of us who are a little bit longer of tooth than some others would realise that, within any language-interest group, we shall meet a plethora of historical, political, racial, religous and social views, we might decide to live and let live for the sake of our common interest in that language. Many of the people who rubbed shoulders with me in Dublin today, born and bred in perhaps close proximity to my own place of birth and upbringing, will certainly not share all, nor indeed many of my own views in the general spectrum. Wouldn't it be a poor world if everyone thought like me or you and didn't think like themselves?

Some few from my own neck of the woods would probably like to 'do my head in' one way or another. It's the same for everyone. There is always aggression out there. If there wasn't, fishermen wouldn't go to sea in boats and loose their lives in winter. Some 27/9 or so, I'm not sure, last year. Were we to trace it back, my home-grown enemy might be a third or fourth cousin, joining along the tree at grt.grnd., or grt.grt.grandparents with me! This is the way things are with human society. We leave the family, the home, the tribe, the state, the continent and after a period, we become estranged. Isn't 'estranged' a strange word, when one thinks about it? There are some German people in Ireland who have a very Irish manner and view about them and there are Irish people in Germany who have a very German way about them. Irish, German, American, Polish, Russian, Chinese, one can go on. Nettles are nutritous. Nettles sting the whole shakin' lot of us, so let's just accept that ALL ARE EQUAL, and more importantly, that the person from the North-West of Ireland, from the parish of Cill Easpaig Brón, to be precise, - the house on the corner, - is more equal than the rest of the entire race! Good, that's that settled once and for all! We've that pig put to rest. Tá an saol socair só agus an mhuc sa chró! Maith go leor! :-

Let's just have a good laugh, quick, before some crazy human like all us other equals, does actually push the button. (All it takes is one to start it like we saw here in the last twenty four hours.)

Between witnessing the on-stage Cré na Cille i nGaillimh aréir and all the energy aroused here, I get the feeling that if we could decide to all go in one direction, at the one time, for the cause of the Irish language, cripes we'd take some beatin!

Just think of it, o loyal ones! What with the guy from Cill Easpaig Brón leading you all, of course, (d'eile!), The Anti-American Irish Division on the left flank, The Anti-Irish Irish-American Division on the right flank, The Anti-Anti-American Irish Special Forces Expeditionary Commandlessable Marine sneaking in on their bellies and taking Teach Laighean le maothsholas na maidine! Síle de Valera in a live broadcast to the world admits defeat and says before the barrel of a gun :

'I give up! I give up, - I'll speak Irish from now on, - Tá mé fear. Ní hea!!!! Ní hea! Is fear mé!

Ábó go deo!


Bímís suáilceach lena chéile, a chairde!

Ní chreidim é!, dhéan an fear ó Chill Easpaig Brón mé 'an Chaora Dhubh'. Tá a fhios agam go raibh mé mionchadránta ach tá sé le céill nuair a bhí mé i ngrá le mo thír go mhór. Tá an t-oileán glas beag i ngar do mo chroí agus téim as do chranna cumhachta nuair a fheicim í mar an rud faoi tharcaisne. Ceart go leor, tá aiféala an domhain orm ach ba mhaith liom a fheiceáil daoine eile rá an rud céanna. Faoi Erin: Ceart ach tá fadhb amháin agam cad é a ríomhphost?

My my my - don't we get offended if somebody points the finger at our little country - but us poor Americans are expected to just grin and bear it. No attack was meant on anybody - I simply am bored to the point of amusement when I hear these little swipes at America.

Aonghus, are you sure you want to use the Congo (which one ?), Lebanon and Cyprus as examples of peace keeping ? As far as interference in other countries, what do you call a bomb in a London department store ? And have you ever been to Nicaragua or Chile (I have). What separates 'interference' from 'peace keeping' - its interference when America does it to protect stability in the western hemisphere, but peace keeping when Ireland is involved in Europe ?

As for WWI , I didn't bring it up, I simply responded to a remark about the US dragging its feet into the conflict. I am aware of the facts, I can read, and for all you Irish school system people there's a fine scannan le Liam Neesom about Michael Collins that you can watch in English to get your history straight. And by the way, we were only 15 years out of the Spanish-American War when WWI began, decimated by influenza, and starting to pay veteran's benefits to the survivors of our own civil war (not 6000 casualties, but 600,000).

46 dead peace keepers - hell, we lose that many every time Osama bombs an embassy. As far as Palestine goes, I believe that you can trace that back as much to the UN as to just America - and wasn't Ireland part of the UK until it was taken away by force, and certainly not with agreement of all the population. What's the difference between Israel and Ireland - neither existed until created by force, against the will of the mother country, citizenship stripped from those who did not want to lose it (there was a civil war, remember) - Was America wrong to recognize Israel ? If so, then we would certainly be wrong in recognizing Ireland.

Gee people, lighten up - I can't speak for Ireland, but over here we're willing to fight wars to keep on exercising the right of free speech. I love my Irish ancestry (also have some German in there). I don't think that America is perfect (racial bigotry maybe, but we can all sit down together in the church of our choice - as if there's no bigotry in Ireland ?)


Lighten up people, ca't you take

Tá an ceart ag an Seosamh eile faoi seo. The other Seosamh is right about this.

Tá súil agam go dtógfaidh gach duine go bog é. I hope every one will take it easy.

Ní bhaineann an chuid is mó den chaint seo leis an Ghaeilgea thuilleadh. Most of this talk doesn't relate to Irish anymore.

Is dócha gurbh'fhéidir linn leanúint ar aghaidh leis an díospóireacht pholaitiúil insan fhóram seo as Gaeilge -- le é a choimeád taobh istigh de chuspóirí an tsuímh seo. É sin nó ar chlár plé Beo. If anyone wants to continue the discussion within the parameters of the forum and website, it could probably be done here as Gaeilge. That or on the Beo discussion board.

Bíodh an focal scoir ag Ristéard. Tá an capall seo buailte marbh cheana, nó beidh sé sul i bhfad eile. People are starting to repeat themselves anyway.

This has spun way beyond reasonable. My only point was that Erin's point of view and comments regarding the original subject were and are no less valid than any other on this site. I took great offense to the term "Typical American". Sorry it got this far out of hand.

A Choilm,

Look, my gut feel is you're a decent guy. I don't want to mix it up with you at all. I just took offense at what seemed a continuing theme from Cailin's last post.

I can't answer for all the sins of my country just as you can't answer for all the sins (few though they may be) of yours. What I can tell you for certain is this--I've been on the cutting edge of my nation's foreign policy. It may sound melodromatic, but it's the God's honest truth. I've been places and seen things that put my country's failures and successes in VERY plain terms for me, personally. I don't for one minute think we have the world's answer to peace. All I am attempting to say is that nations are nations and people are people. Learn to separate the two. (That's not directed at you, personally, it's a generalized request.) I can't and will not hold the citizens of El Salvador accountable for what I witnessed in parts of that country. It would not be fair. I cannot and will not hold the average Boliviano accountable for the corruption I witnessed in that country. My list can go on and on but time nor prudence will permit it in this forum. Suffice it to say---give the American respondents on this site a bit of credit for giving two farts about Ireland and Irish issues. No, we don't live there, No, we don't get all of the nuances of Irish life, but Christ Almighty, we do CARE about Ireland and the Irish.

Peace be with you.

James

James
I agree. Everybody has a right to post their opinion, and have it respected. Similarly, everybody has the right to argue against that opinion. I believe that nobody has the right to invalidate an opinion because of who the person who expressed it is, or where they come from, but regretably this happens a lot on bulletin boards. It is easier than answering the arguments with reason and calm.

Richard
I'm sorry I took your bait; The point I was trying to make is that the whole thing is gray, and that everybody has a right to their opinions - you dimissed Ireland as a backwater, I raised a few points to reject that claim.

To nail my colours (or even colors) to the mast.
I am an Irish citizen.
I have spoken Irish since I could speak, although I am not from a Gaeltacht.
I welcome anybody who takes an interest in the language I love, and especially those who take the trouble to learn it, and I don't give a damn about their backgrounds, citizenry or anything else. It is more than enough for me to see they share my love of Irish.

I welcome, although with some qualms, anybody who uses Irish to name their house/dog whatever, or uses it to decorate a ring, picture, tatoo... At least they are aware that a distinct Irish language exists.

I will continue to use this board to help such people to the best of my ability.

Sorry, Ireland wasn't the back water I was referring to (Bosnia, Somalia, Haiti, etc, every little country that screams for US intervention in its human rights problems).

You're right, we are beating a dead horse, let's move on to issues of importance in Gaeilge.

Richard wrote:
>>What separates 'interference' from 'peace keeping' - its interference when America does it to protect stability in the western hemisphere, but peace keeping when Ireland is involved in Europe ?

Ireland was asked by the UN to send troops to Congo, Lebanon and Cyprus. They did not take sides in these conflicts.

The US chose to send troops/agents to the countries I mentioned, and took sides in the conflict.

Come ON guys, move on ... what has all this to do with the Irish language????

Labhrás.

James, point taken and thanks.
Now everybody since we have sorted this out i have kinda re-started this discussion in:
"Its time to face the music. Aisling bhréig nó todhchaí réalaíoch?"
Colm.

Always have to have the last word, Aonghus - whenever the UN steps in, the winning side is stopped from winning and the losing side is stopped from losing, and stability is restored, right ? That's UN stability, might makes right, and its all politically correct - even if neither side is a member of the UN (where was the UN when half a million Africans were being slaughtered and starved). Move Ireland's fight against England up fifty years (or give teeth to the League of Nations), have the UN step in and maintain the peace between the UK and , well , the UK, or the Irish part of it, and would you consider that peace keeping, or interfering?

Sorry, just baiting you again - some years ago I taught terrorism to American policemen; they all had a good grasp of what terrorism was ( para-military action against a civilian target to garner public awareness or support for a political cause), and could relate the definition to the bombing of the King David Hotel, the IRA, and the bombing of Flight 103, all clearly terrorism - but to this day , I still have graduates come up to me and chastise me for listing the Boston Tea Party as the first act of terrorism on American (well, UK at the time) soil - I'm told that this was not terrorism, these were patriots. To the victor goes the spoils, and history is always written by the winning side.

Seriously Aonghus, I have learned much from your postings, and hope to continue to do so in the future. I believe that it was one of your postings that inspired me to teach my daughter Irish, now 4 years old, and regularly correcting my translations from RnaG as she tells her mother 'what they're saying..."

A Chairde uilig,
Tá áthas orm go bhfuil sibh chun bheith deas lena chéile as seo amach! Tá cead ag aon duine a chuid tuairimí a nochtadh ar an suíomh seo gan daoine eile a bheith ag caitheamh anúas air/uirthí!
Níor spreag mo theachtaireacht faoin tUasal Walsh an díospóireacht a bhí mé ag súil leis!
Agus mar fhreagra ar an cuireadh a chuir mé chugaibh, níl morán daoine tágtha chuig an forum lán-Ghaeilge chun a gcuid tuairimí a léiriú ansin trí mhéan na Gaeilge!
Corraigí bhur gcroí agus bhur n-intinn ag an am céanna agus bainigí usáid as an teanga, seachas bheith ag caitheamh amú ama le díospóireachtaí polaitíochta nach mbeidh deireadh nó réitiú acu choíche!

Richard White,

I've never posted before in this forum, but I had to take up your challenge to list some of the scientific and social achievements of Ireland. I don't intend to list every achievement by Irishmen. Only a few to help you overcome your bizarre idea that the Irish have made no scientific and social contributions.

Robert Boyle. One of the founders of the science of chemistry.

William Parsons. One of the greatest astronomers of the 19th Century. The first person to discover a spiral galaxy.

George FitzGerald. Who was the co-theorist behind the idea that bodies at high speed would contract and time would slow. An idea that influenced Einstein's theory of relativity.

To list the social achievements, we can start at something that not even New York, London, Paris, or Los Angeles has achieved: Produce three Nobel Prize winners in literature. George Bernard Shaw, Samuel Beckett, William Butler Yeats. All born in Dublin.

Can you name a country that has as many scientific and social achievements with as small a population as Ireland?

Well said M.S., well bloody said.

Thank you, Fintan!

Go raibh maith agat!

Dia duit, M.S. a chara,

I've a country for you : Scotland. I assume that Scotland is a country by itself, and not just a part of UK. If I'm not wrong, its population is similar to Ireland's.

Visit this :
http://www.scottish-inventions.org.uk/

I don't know if there're Nobel prizes, but almost everybody knows R.L.Stevenson, A.Conan Doyle, Walter Scott ...

BTW I'm an Ireland lover, just adding some info

Slán

Conas atá tú, a Lluis,

Scotland has contributed a lot for a small country. And has a population only slightly larger than the combined population of the Republic of Ireland and the 6 UK administered counties of Ulster. I would still have to give the nod to Ireland, however, which has given us: James Joyce, Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw, Seamus Heaney, Oliver Goldsmith, Laurence Sterne, Samuel Beckett, William Butler Yeats, Jonathan Swift, and William Synge among many others.

I'm an American of Irish and Scottish descent. And I like to think of the enormous contributions of the Scottish as being owed to their good Gaelic genes--courtesy of their Irish ancestors:)

Gabh mo leithscéal. I have made a mistake. The author of The Playboy of the Western World was named John Synge not William Synge.

Tá brón orm.

Its just occurred to me, when i was in school, a few years back, they made me learn algebra. i was never any good at it and i don't think i've ever had cause to use it since, then but by God they were determined to make me learn it and they didn't spare the rod! (come to think of it the rod was the normal instrument of instruction for all subjects back then). Wonder why no-one started an 'Algebra Freedom' movement so their kids would not have to waste time learning such a useless subject?

In future, with Irish banished from the schools, kids can learn...well, lets say Danish or Norwegian or Latvian. We know these must be worthwhile subjects because the Danes and the Norwegians and the Latvians want the EU to help keep them alive, right?

Hello All,


I'm new to this site and just wanted to thank all who have put time,effort & money into this worthy site.It's a great site.Any site trying to keep the Irish culture & language current & alive is certainly a worthy cause.

With this in mind I find it odd that "anyone" would bother to come onto this site with any "negative" remarks on the very "premise" of this sites' being?????Although all have the right to access this site for any personal reasons,if your not here to learn Irish and support its' growth... W H Y are you here?

In regards to this whole WWII thing...and the Anti-American & you all owe us thing....again,this is a Irish site for people whom share a love of all things Irish and a strong sense of "being" Irish. There are enough "divisions" in Irish society as a whole, need the love of the Irish language continue to be one as well?

To all whom contribute to this site,God bless.."up the Irish" I say...I am an Irish-American with dual Irish & American (U.S.)citizenship-for those proud & interested enough in obtaining your Irish citizenship contact your local Irish consulate office for details-basically must be no more than 2nd generation here in the States and must prove your lineage from yourself to your parent of Irish descent and then to your grandparent of Irish descent. Not a difficult process if you know a little family history.


Slan.,Joe