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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (October-December) » I'm an unhappy Irish person « Previous Next »

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Cá ilí n (1cust27.tnt2.dub2.ie.uudial.net - 213.116.42.27)
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi, I'd just like to ask a question. Are the people you teach actually Irish?? Definition of Irish; have been brought up in Ireland. If yes, then that's fine. But if no, then that slightly annoys me. The language of Irish isn't like Spanish or French in that it's not spoken worldwide. It's only spoken in Ireland. It would annoy me to see other people trying to learn it who aren't Irish. It may sound selfish and petty but that's my point of view because it seems to me that the average white American or Canadian thinks they are culture-less and so, they say "Well my great grandad is Irish so I'll go back to my roots." Your roots are American. You are not Irish.
I'm sorry if this seems rude but I can't help my opinion. It's MY heritage, MY culture and MY language. It's like a whiteman pretending to be black.
Please don't think I am being ignorant. I'm open to any of your thoughts. I think it's great that you're interested in learning it and I would do nothing to stop it but I just feel like you've stolen something.
Feel free to email me: mrsbradpig@hotmail.com

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Dennis King (c792392-a.sttln1.wa.home.com - 24.19.205.18)
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 03:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dúirt tú "It's MY language." Fairplay duit. Scríobh chugainn i nGaeilge agus bíodh díospóireacht ann faoi stádas na teanga. An fíor go bhfuil sí á goid? Ar cheart di a bheith out of bounds -- ar nós, is dócha, Hungarian, Thai, Danish, Greek agus gach teanga eile nach bhfuil "mór" agus "idirnáisiúnta"? Tá a lán bundúchasaigh i Meiriceá nach bhfuil in ann a dteanga dúchais a labhairt, nach bhfuil spéis acu inti dáiríre, agus nach dtugann aon iarracht ar "a dteanga" a fhoghlaim. Ach tá cuid acu thar a bheith sásta íde béil a thabhairt do sheanóir ar bith a bhfuil sé de dhánaíocht ann an teanga chéanna, a bhfuil cos amháin léi san uaigh, a mhúineadh do dhuine neamhIndiach a bhfuil spéis mhacánta aige inti agus atá sásta an obair a dhéanamh leis an teanga, ná cuid di, a tharrtháil. "We're Spokanes, Spokane is our language, we speak Spokane" a deir na daoine óga seo, bíodh is nach bhfuil siad in ann rud ar bith a rá sa teanga sin! Mura bhfuil duine in ann teanga a labhairt -- mura bhfuil seilbh aige uirthi -- an leis an teanga sin? An leis í ar bhun stairiúil nó spioradálta nó... géiniteach, agus é dall uirthi san am céanna? Cé leis an Ghaeilge: le Gearmánach a bhfuil sí ar a thoil aige, nó le Gaillmheach nach bhfuil in ann "tá mé fear" a rá?

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Cáilí n (1cust224.tnt1.dub2.ie.uudial.net - 213.116.40.224)
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 03:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi it's me again. Yeah I agree that there are a lot of languages that are like Irish in that they're not spoken generally outside the country but I suppose I still stick to my point. I'm 17 and I've been learning Irish since I was 5. Unfortunatly, I don't agree with their ways of teaching as I find that I've forgotten a lot of the Irish I've learned. For example, I've been learning German for only five years and I can speak it much much better than Irish. I'm around the age where you start to realise your own culture.
Plus, when I was growing up, everyone I knew was white and Irish. Nowadays, there are black people coming into the coutry to live. I've no problem with that whatsoever. One of my friends is african. But now I feel like we really have to hold onto our culture because already it's getting mixed with others. I don't want it to end up being like the US where the whites seem to have no culture. The black people have african culture, the chinese have chinese culture, the puerto ricans have spanish culture. But the white people??
That's just my explanation. To make up for the fact that my oral Irish is pretty bad, I'm going to a Gaeltacht this samhraidh to be able to speak it better.
I can speak it but sometimes find it difficult to remember some verbs.
I appreciate that you've spent the time and energy to write your reply. (And yes, I understand it!!)

Go raibh míle maith agat!

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Daithí Mac Lochlainn as NUA-EABHRAC (spider-mtc-tg051.proxy.aol.com - 64.12.102.171)
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Is minic go gcloistear ó na hEorpaigh go bhfuil na Méiriceánaigh "aineolach".

Nuair a fheactear go bhfuil suim againn ar rud eicint, cuirtear olc orainn!

Is leatsa an faidhb, a bhuachaillín!

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Fintan (neta.lisp.com.au - 203.21.133.124)
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 09:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well bugger me....
I have NEVER been as flabbergasted as I am by this conversation. What CENTURY are we in, people?

Let me get this straight..... despite the centuries of horror and war largely DUE to one people's ignorance of another's culture, we STILL think it's a good idea to cling parochially to what we PERCEIVE as bein "MY/OUR" culture/language etc..? *sheesh*

Here in Australia it is hard enough as it IS to raise the profile of the Irish language (an IMPORTANT part of OUR cultural legacy), a process of struggling against 200 years of anti-Irish language, pro-English linguistic/cultural warfare... I mean, there are STILL people here who buy the (largely British-inspired) bizarre notion that the Irish HAVE no language, or that they simply speak English......

It's not YOUR language, you are one of 1.43 million+ speakers of a living language in your own country.... a living language NO different to French, German, Swahili or ANY of the world's OTHER living languages. Do you seek a repeat of the disastrous decline in usage of Irish from the mid-19th century onwards? Of course you don't...so be GRATEFUL to people like the dedicated souls at Daltai.com who feel enough of a connection to the tongue to use it...

And it's not just YOUR culture either....look, I know how bloody annoying weepy-faced, crystal-waving pseudo-New-Age NeoCeltic Twilight Fringers can get, trust me..... but for those of us here in Australia (30%+) born of Irish / Scottish descent, it IS our culture as well. How can it not be?

Sorry I'm ranting. You are MORE than entitled to your opinion. No disresepect intended whatsoever, but...*really!*

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richard white (sdn-ar-002flnicep316.dialsprint.net - 168.191.251.222)
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Interesting concept - it's your language and culture, but you have to go to a certain part of your country to learn it; I am a white American of Irish descent, living in the South as have all my people since great great grand daddy left Co. Antrim - and I do have a culture . Why, I bet you can't get a decent order of grits in all of Ireland.

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Fintan (neta.lisp.com.au - 203.21.133.124)
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 10:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And another couple of things.....

Trying to pick through the garbled semi-philosophy expressed in your FIRST post..... As European Americans (by definition) are NOT Native Americans, they are ALL immigrants or the descendants thereof. THUS, their "cultures' are those of their ancestors in their countries of origin. Since WHEN has a colonised country (like the US, or Australia) had a "cultural" identity limited to the colonised land?

Using your 'logic', one could ask you not to learn German, because YOU'RE not German( und ich spreche nur eine kleine bisschen Deutsch).

You've only been learning German 5 years, and it's eclipsing your abilities in Irish already? Either you never really wanted to learn your own tongue (until recently), OR you were taught APPALLINGLY badly (a likely possibility), OR you don't use an Gaeilge enough (in which case, use it more, obviously).

Now, don't take this the wrong way, but some of the ways you express yourself in your posts are QUITE concerning. I am hoping to be proven wrong by your subsequent posts, BUT.... If we all STOPPED making so many distinctions between MY culture, YOUR culture, THEIR culture etc...we'd be in a much nicer place.

I mean really, some of your comments sound like the kind of ideas fed surreptitiously into young minds like yours by racist propagandists and their ilk.... "..it's like a white man pretending to be black"...... "...But now I feel
like we really have to hold onto our culture because already it's getting mixed with others. I don't want it to end up being like the US where the whites seem to have no culture. The black people have African culture, the Chinese have Chinese culture, the Puerto Ricans have Spanish culture. But the white people??"...newsflash=Puerto Ricans ARE white people (ie. of EUROPEAN descent)

If you want to preserve your culture, then fine...[but WE are not the ones 'attacking' it (thank your neighbours for that)]... you should find all the 'allies' you can....

And as for Irish not being spoken internationally outside of Ireland...bollocks. I know of more than 50 speakers (YES, some of them were fortunately blessed by Irish birth) right here in Australia.

Ah but what would I know? *grin* I'm just a culture-thieving old colonial with a soft-spot for the tongue of my ancestors......
Is mise le meas,
Fintan

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Seosamh (2cust42.tnt67.nyc3.da.uu.net - 67.194.110.42)
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Scríobh Cailín:

I'm around the age where you start to realise your own culture.

Is maith an rud é nuair a tharlaíonn a leithéid do dhuine ag aois ar bith. Ní bhacann a lán Éireannach leis an Ghaeilge.

D'fhiafraíodh díomsa agus de bhean (Meiriceánach eile) an raibh aon athrú tugtha fá deara againn le linn na 20 bliain a bhfuil an beirt againn ag foghlaim na Gaeilge. D'aontaigh muid i daobh an fhreagra. Tá trí rud feicthe againn le roinnt blianta anuas: 1) Tá níos mó daoine ag obair ar son na Gaeilge ná ariamh agus tá ag éirí leo de réir a chéile; 2) Tá an mionlach atá i gcoinne na teanga níos gníomhúla ná ariamh; agus 3) Tá doicheall ag fás i measc lucht na Gaeilge roimh eachtrannaigh a bhfuil Gaeilge acu. Ciallaíonn sin Meiriceánaigh (Ceanadaigh san áireamh), ar ndóigh. Tá a lán Éireannach ag dúiseacht suas agus ag aithint na neamhshuime agus an neamhchúraim atá curtha i leith na Gaeilge go dtí seo. Mar bharr ar an donas tá Seapánaigh, Sualannaigh agus -- gasp -- Meiriceánaigh á foghlaim. Tincéirí sa ghairdín nár tugadh aon aird air le blianta.

Nuair a iarrann Éireannach go míshásta nó go feargach ar mo chara, Why are you learning Irish?, sin a thugann sí mar fhreagra dóibh ná I started learning Irish twenty years ago. Where were you then?

Níl fáth ar bith ann go rachadh Meiriceánach nó Astrálach thart ag iarraidh cead ó Éireannaigh an teanga a fhoghlaim. Foghlaimíonn daoine i ngach cúinne den domhan teangacha eile gan a leithéid a dhéanamh, na Éirinn san áireamh. Cuireann sé isteach ar dhaoine go bhfuil Meiriceánaigh -- thar aon dream eile -- ag foghlaim Gaeilge mar gheall ar an dá fháth seo: 1) Frith-Mheiriceánachas: Tír chumhachtach í SAM agus mothaíonn daoine laga a laige dá bharr, agus 2) Is de shliocht Éireannach an chuid is mó de na foghlaimeoirí agus is i dteideal na teanga atáimid. Ár n-oidhreacht féin atá inti. Sin dúshlán don úinéireacht a éilíonn cuid de na hÉireannaigh dóibh féin.

Claonadh mífholláin atá ann. D'ionsaigh strainséir Éireannach mé go fíochmhar ar an subway as suim a bheith agam sa Ghaeilge. 'YOU'RE not Irish' a scairt an créatúr bocht arís agus arís, níos deirge leis an fhuath agus leis an fhearg le gach nóiméad gur tháinig an traein isteach ina stáisiúnsa agus d'imigh sé. Chuir a chuid mí-iompair scannal ar mo chara (ar Éigipteach é) agus ar na paisinéirí eile. Iad siúd ar Meiriceánaigh, Ceanadaigh, Sasanaigh iad, bhí seansteireitíp gránna den Éireannach feicthe acu ina steille bheatha agus b'in deireadh -- ar scála beag, BLD -- leis na hiarrachtaí a dhéanann muid mar Ghael-Mheiriceánaigh le híomhá dearfach a chothú.

Nuair a d'inis mé an scéal do mhac léinn Gaeilge Meiriceánach (Giúdach), dúirt sí liom gan bheith ag plé ár gcultúir féin go poiblí. Mar shampla, bualadh triúr Éireannach fear Gael-Mheiriceánach go dona mar dúirt sé leo gurb as Tír Chonaill é. (A mhuintir a bhí i gceist ach labhair sé leis an shorthand atá againn dona leithéid.) Ní aon eisceacht é an tArdmhachach Feargach, faraoir, mar sin. Cad é tá ag tarlú? Ní rabhthas mar sin i 1981 nuair a chuaigh mé go hÉirinn don chéad uair.

D'inis cara liom inné gur éignigh mac léinn Haváíoch a neacht i meánscoil phoiblí i Maui mar a bhfuil sise agus a thuistí ina gcónaí. Tharla sin mar gheall ar naimhdeas i leith na 'Haoli' (daoine neamh-Haváíocha). Ar an chúis chéanna níor gearradh aon phionós ar an bhuachaill. Lena níon a choimeád slán bhí orthu í a chur isteach i scoil 'eachtrannach'. Ná bíodh dallamullógaí orainn. Bíonn an 'úinéireacht' cultúrtha sin olc gránna, achan phioc chomh nimhneach i measc na náisiún beag agus atá sé ag na tíortha móra 'impiriúla.'

Molaim do Chailín gan a bheith buartha fúinne agus a bheith linn ag glacadh aithseilbhe ar an teanga. Glac an Ghaeilge mar do theanga féin agus ní bheidh na fadhbanna sin le líofacht agus briathra ag cur isteach isteach ort go cionn ró-fhada eile. Bail ó Dhia ar an dea-obair.

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Aonghus (vpn.parthus.com - 62.221.5.1)
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

For the benefit of Cailín I'll post this in English.
As a native (and daily) Irish speaker, although not from a Gaeltacht, I welcome anybody, no matter what their origins, who want's to learn Irish. And I don't care, beyond a mild interest, what their motivation is! The Irish language, along with our literature and history is part of European culture, which we should be proud to share, and which would have suffered more were it not for late 19th Century European scholars who learnt it - Kuno Meyer, Carl Mastrander, etc.

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Daithí Mac Lochlainn (spider-wk023.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.158)
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 09:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Scíobhann Aonghus:

--"For the benefit of Cailín I'll post this in English."--

Ouch! ;-)


Muise! Ní fhaca mé an t-ainm! Gabh mo leithscéal!:
"Is leatsa an faidhb, a chailín!"

--"we should be proud to share"--

Bhuel, a Aoghuis, tá tusa comportach leatsa féin. Gan "aothú céannachta" atá tú. Sin é an éagsúlacht.

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Seosamh Mac Bhl. (1cust79.tnt67.nyc3.da.uu.net - 67.193.46.79)
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

It would be ironic if Cailín couldn't understand Irish, but she did understand Donncha's message and should be able to understand mine. It sounds like she knows lots of Irish and just needs to polish up and practice it.

It's disconcerting to some Irish people to go to an Irish summer course and find that many (occasionally most) of the students are from outside Ireland. I've read, heard and sometimes seen that. There are reasons. Somewhere aroundn 60 people around the world, maybe more, have at least some Irish ancestry. Many other people find the culture fascinating. One of the Irish-language e-mail lists gets periodic reports from a group of learners in Uzbekistan (two of the women were attacked recently by terrorists who don't like independent women.) One of my students says that interest in learning Irish is growing among her mostly non-Irish fellow tango students.

To some degree I can understand discomfort with all this. But if the Irish themselves treat the language the right way, there would be no need for it. Most Irish people NEED to do things like attend summer courses. Almost none of them should. Anyway, interest in Irish outside Ireland is a very positive thing and should be strongly encouraged. Take it as a compliment and a challenge.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (proxy-server3.ul.ie - 136.201.1.52)
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní miste go nglacfadh duine as Éirinn leithscéal le gach éinne a bualadh faoin gcroí leis an aistíl deiridh seo. Sílim go dtuigeann sibh cuid den obair seo, go bhfaca sibh cuid di cheana, nó gur mhothaigh sibh trácht ar a leithéid. Aontaím ar fad lena bhfuil ráite ar an suíomh seo ag cuid eile agaibh ar an ábhar. An-ráite chomh maith.
...............................................

A Chailín Dhea-bhéas na hAistíle,

They really annoyed you alright, didn't they! You use 'annoy' twice. You then, despite your youth and good manner, attack them as 'average white American/Canadian', bringing color to brighten us all up for some reason. Then the poor misled zealots are taken to task for stealing from a decent Irish cailín, my God!

Deirim leat, mura nglacfaidh tú leis an nGaeilg, an Béarla a theilgean uait oiread agus is féidir agus an Ghaeilg a labhairt go lá do bháis, ní fiú a dhath thú! Why? Because you have seen the light,
... scales fall from eyes long blind,
man completes his partial mind.

Quiz your friends about Your language, Your heritage, Your cultere. Note that order and think again for yourself on the matter. It's a stark truth. Your Taoiseach, Your Minister for the Arts, the dddddd, and eh, the Gaeltacht, all feel quite Irish by continueing their present lives with the language, cultere and heritage of the group that bet them in the field, in the court and, listen, in the heart. The shackle has worn through. The worst badge of slavery, they wear with relative complacency. The mind is dulled and they can be proud of Joyce, Yeats, Riverdance, the Irish economy, Their football team. (looooow, liiiiie, the fields of Athenry, ....) How is it that I can get some interested Germans to horrify the Irish that share a house with them, by the formers speed in learning spoken Irish? Guilt. The guilt complex formerly held by some, other than yourself, has continuely mitigated against the 'Irish'. That's their problem. Some of the Irish have overcome the problem, get stuck in and by-pass the school standard to move on to their own enjoyment. I feel that children from the Indian and Pakistani communities in Ireland are another fast learner group of Irish.

Last year, I asked a conversation class of mic léinn Ghaeilge, 'Cé mhéad agaibh a bheadh sásta gasúr a thógáil le Gaeilg i gcathair ar bith, ar nós Chorcaí, Luimnigh, nó BhÁC'? Ní raibh ach aon bhean amháin as measc 12, nó mar san, a bhí leathmhall ag comharthú go dearfach.

The 'Irish' are beginning to shake the shackles and the overseas interest is VITAL in the process. Coinnígí oraibh a Ghaela Mheiriceá/Cheanada agus ná baineadh a dhath bogadh ná bíogadh asaibh.

Mo cheol sibh!


A Chailín,

Glac do mhisneach agus déan an rud a chaithfeas tú a dhéanamh. Tá mo ríomhphost féin agat anois. Beidh mé ar fáil leis an gceist a chíoradh leat am ar bith ar do chaoithiúlacht.

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Seán Garland (spider-loh-tf081.proxy.aol.com - 195.93.50.186)
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 03:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chara,

I'm afraid to say "Cáilín" I've never heard such narrow minded, introspective, backward and intolerant rubbish. I'm an Irish person, born (Dublin) and bred (I've lived in Ireland all my life)and I'm ashamed to see what most definitely sounds selfish and petty, and mildly racist.

Fintan's post is so right, and I can assure you as an Irish language activist, its almost as hard to raise the use, profile and acceptance of the Irish language in Ireland as it is in Australia! I think its fantastic to see those of the Irish diaspora and others internationally, seeking to preserve, promote and use our unique ancient native tongue/ culture. I only wish more people at home would do likewise rather than treating the language as a very attractive and exclusive piece of the family silverware only to be viewed occasionally as a thing of beauty, referred to in passing and rarely used - certainly not to be given over to "strangers" or "outsiders".

And why shouldn't those of Irish descent in America , Australia and elsewhere learn, speak and use their ancestors language? Why shouldn't people of non-Irish descent learn the language and culture, why shouldn't they marvel at, learn, and become part of what I think is one of our best kept secrets? Don't forget Irish Gaelic culture is as rich and ancient as Egypt, Greece or Rome! A heritage as rich as this not only should , it must be open to all irrespective of race, creed, or belief. We in Ireland of all people should know what it is to be excluded!

I commend Daltaí na Gaeilge for a wonderful website and their efforts to date - I'd like to see it expand to deal with Irish/Gaeilc culture from ancient mythology to medieval Gaelic society and the Brehon laws etc. I wish more websites emanating from Ireland were like it!

The exigencies of space preclude me from saying much more. Although, I would be hapy to continue the debate with you in Irish.

Is mise le meas


Seán Mac Gartlan
Co. an Dúin
Éire

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Larry (host213-122-115-99.btinternet.com - 213.122.115.99)
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Cailin"

I take exception to being called a thief. I have NOT stolen anything from you!

Le meas,
Larry.

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Bernadette Palmer. (p999.as3.adl.dublin.eircom.net - 159.134.231.231)
Posted on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Chailín,

Tá mé ar buille. Rugadh agus tugadh mé i mBAC, tá mé caoga bliana daois, Nuair a bhí mé óg, chaith mé a lán am san ospideal agus mar gheall ar, níor fhoglaim mé a lán gaeilge. Ceithre blian ó shin, chuaigh mé ar aís ar scoil agus freastalaím dhá rang gaeilge gach seachtain. Tá timpeall 30 daoine i mó rang agus tá fhios agam faoi a lán ranganna eile ar súil i BAC, agus gach bliain chaith muid deireadh seachtain i Gaelteacht i Rath Cairn AGUS is aoibhinn gach daoine é.
I have absolutely no fadbh le daoine ón gach áit trid an Domhan an gaeilge a fhoghlaim. We are steeped in history and culture and I have just bought a book "How the Irish Saved Civilisation. Now that's is something to be really proud of, don't you think.

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Fintan (neta.lisp.com.au - 203.21.133.124)
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 12:32 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Maith thú a Bernadette!

Cahill's "How the Irish Saved Civilisation" is a CRACKING book. One of my all-time favourites.

BY THE WAY - makes an old Plastic Aussie Paddy damn proud to see so many impassioned defenders of the tongue and the rights of all to speak it. No room on THIS freedom-locomotive for begrudgers and naysayers..*toot-toot!*

The only thief in this case has been...
- Ignorance.
- Fear.
- Centuries of active policy from Westminster to destroy the language for fear of it being some kind of secret, 'bolshie', rebellious means of spreading dissent...(*HAH! nice try!).
- The 'bred-in-the-bone, comes-out-of-the-neck' kind of pigheaded tripe which (I suspect) thousands of disillusioned young Irishfolk have been fed as a salve for the massive rip-off that the usual elites have foist upon them.
But (yet again) I ranteth off the sermoneth.

The life of a language is in the speaking of it.

May billions of Gods (and yet One) keep you and protect you all. *chuckle*

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Daithí Mac Lochlainn, Scoil Bela Abzug (spider-to052.proxy.aol.com - 152.163.204.67)
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chailín,

Feicimid go fuath leat na Poncáin.

Céard a gceapann tú faoi Afganastánaigh
ag foghlaim Gaeilge?

Is mise,

Daithí Mac Lochlainn,
Ardmháistir,
Scoil Bela Abzug,
Cearnóg Xíona,
Kabul, An Afganastáin

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Seosamh (1cust182.tnt67.nyc3.da.uu.net - 67.193.46.182)
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Áthas orm go maireann cuimhne Bela Abzug i measc na ndaoine (i Nua-Eabhrac) fós.

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Seosamh (1cust182.tnt67.nyc3.da.uu.net - 67.193.46.182)
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2001 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mise arís. For the record: When I wrote 'Somewhere around 60 people around the world, maybe more, have at least some Irish ancestry', I meant '60 million', ar ndóigh.

Bhain mé sult as na teachtaireachtaí thuas. Thaitin pointe Sheáin fán 'family silverware' go mór liom. Ar an drochuair tá siad ann fós nach dtarraingíonn an Ghaeilge amach ar ócáidí faoi leith ach a choimeádann í i gcófra múchta dorcha mar a bheadh 'family skeleton' ann. Bhí ciall ag Seosamh Mac M. ariamh.

Uair amháin, d'fhreagair mé teachtaireacht ar láithreán Éireannach a bhí inchurtha leis seo ó chailín a bhí ar chomhaois (nach mór) le Cailín agus chuaigh mé féin thar fóir. Foghlaimeoidh sí, tá súil agam.

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Maureen Connel (pool-162-83-200-11.ny5030.east.verizon.net - 162.83.200.11)
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chailín,

Ní thagann ciall roimh aois.
Móran cainte ar beagán cúise.
Is trom an t-ualach an t-aineaolas.
Is fear bhriste ná Béarla cliste.

Is seanmháthair agus daltaí as Nua-Eabharc SAM.
Is breá liom a bheith ag foghaim an theagna dom sinsearí.

Mamó Maírín

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Daniel (ras1-p472.jlm.netvision.net.il - 62.0.145.232)
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 08:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't understand much Gaelic so it's ok if someone writes in English (the translation of course).

About the thread itself, well I'm Israeli and our language is evolving in every minute. It used to be a dead language. If not a diversity of people speaking it it would be impossible to hear it today.

It's wonderfull to see people who r interested in one's culture and language.

Even African culture and languages are not under the ownership of the Black people alone. today you can find even whites who study African languages or cultures.

If you're not a purist in your soul then there is nothing to be afraid of or to irritate you in that.

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Dutchgael (dyn317-wtb.nbw.tue.nl - 131.155.58.136)
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 05:32 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chailín,

Imagine the English would have had your attitude: they wouldn't have allowed the Irish to speak English!

Táim im chónaí insan Ísiltír, and being a dutchman I had to learn English, German, French. We're used to foreign languages.

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Cáilín (1cust146.tnt1.dub2.ie.uudial.net - 213.116.40.146)
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi, it's me again! I totally take in all of your points. Like I said, I do appreciate the fact that you're all learning Irish and I'd do nothing to stop it.
I'm not ignorant or rascist. I appreciate my country. I like people of other countries and I am friends with them but I still hold to my point that I don't think cultures should be mixed because that's when the lines start to blur.
I really honestly am happy for all of you who learn the language, you're very fluent!
As for the Afghan man, I don't hate na Poncáin. I just get annoyed when I see Americans making fun of other cultures in their tv shows. And I'd just like to say I hope things get better in Afghanistan and it all stops.
I appreciate all your points. You're all very good critics!

Also, to another post from Fintan, you say that we shouldn't have so many definitions of who owns what culture. I agree with that to some extent but I still think the lines would blur if we shared our cultures. For example, when English people invaded Ireland many years ago, we all spoke Irish. Now we don't. Also, in England, you'll find some Irish folk songs to which the words have been changed. The English say that it's THEIR folk song. The lines blur between Irish and English. Do you understand my point? The world would be a boring place if we shared all our cultures. Since tv has become popular, Ireland is becoming Americanised. Just another blur. I think our accents are even changing.
I don't mean to offend any person of any culture, race, religon, whatever. Thanx for everything you've said. I'll take it all on board.

Slán!!

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james (host2165.scotlandhealth.org - 207.59.152.165)
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia Dhuit, A Cailin,

Sorry if that greeting offends you. How about "Howdy!"

You are correct, I am an American and as such I have my own national culture. But, within that national culture we have a vast number of personal, or ancestral cultures. My ancestral culture is Irish. I'm terribly sorry that you can't seem to wrap your mind around this fact, but it remains a fact none the less. I can't exactly pinpoint when we "came over" but given my surname (An anglicized version of Mac Aonghus as in Dun Aonghus) I can all but guarantee that I carry the blood of Erin in my veins.

I have been fortunate enough to visit your country, MY ancestral land, once. I made it a point to spend time in three of the Gaeltachts and found nothing but warmth and acceptance from those who are TRUE Irish speakers. My pronunciation is apalling, my command of grammar weak, at best and my vocabulary is pitifully small. Despite that, I had the most wonderful time speaking, or at least trying to speak, with the people of Dingle, Inis Mor and An Spideal. Perhaps you should spend some time there yourself for a true "cultural" as well as linguistic immersion.

I'll continue to learn, but perhaps never master, YOUR language: the language of MY ancestors. When I visit YOUR country, MY ancestral home, I'll continue to speak as much of it as my abilities permit. Should you ever venture to visit MY country, feel free to look me up. I'll invite you over to the house, feed you some grits, put you up on one of my horses, strap some spurs to your boots and let you rope a few cows. No, you're not American, but I would be more than happy to introduce you to some of the unique aspects of MY country and would be flattered by any enthusiasm you might show for it.

I've got to go, now. Got some cows to "punch", my horses need feeding and I've got to read another section in Buntus Cainte. I have far more to say on this subject and will gather my thoughts and facts for more banter.


Slan,


James Patrick McGinnis

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Maureen Connelly (pool-162-83-202-229.ny5030.east.verizon.net - 162.83.202.229)
Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chailín, a chara,
I will use bearla this time. I am a second generation Irish American. Your Culture in my culture. I have been steeped in Irish Culture since I was born, long ago. I speak Irish to my grandchildern to the best of my ability. Teaching them little phrases and commands. I sing Irish children's songs to the newest additions to the family, triplet boys.
The only way you can loose your culture is not to use, the language, not to listen to the traditional music, or partake in the dancing, don't read any of the great irish authors or poets.
I also have an American culture and it is not necessarly mixed in the Irish culture. I can seperate the two cultures. In this country in many ways the two cultures are combined. Many organizations and clubs that are Irish or were founded by the Irish for the Irish, and as time progerssed Irish Americans have joined them and keepted the tradition alive. So we have a choice to take or leave it.
I think that your pop and rock music is influencing America and the World.
In Amercia we hve many cultures and each of them can keep thier own tradition alive, it is up to them.

Maureen

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (proxy-server3.ul.ie - 136.201.1.52)
Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Is doiligh a chreidiúint nach uisce faoi thalamh atá ar bun ag duine éicint, ach feicim corr-rud thall is abhus a léiríonn gur cailín óg agus roinnt cairde a bheith ag tacú léi atá taobh thiar den áiféis seo. Is diabhalta an rud é.


>By Cáilín (1cust146.tnt1.dub2.ie.uudial.net - >213.116.40.146) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 03:05 pm:
>..... I do appreciate the fact that you're all learning >Irish and I'd do nothing to stop it.

Maith go leor.

> I'm not ignorant or rascist.

Tá súil agam nach bhfuil.


> I appreciate my country. I like people of other countries and I am friends with them

Maith go leor.

> but I still hold to my point that I don't think cultures should be mixed because that's when the lines start to blur.

Is ort féin, a Chailín, an 'blur' seo agus ní ar na 'lines' é, is eagal liom.

> I really honestly am happy for all of you who learn the language, you're very fluent!

Is maith go bhfuil dream éigin ag foghlaim na Gaeilge, tharla go bhfuil muintir na hÉireann chomh meata sa chúis.

> As for the Afghan man, I don't hate na Poncáin.

Is léir go gcuireann sé isteach ort go bhfuilid ag foghlaim na Gaeilge. Faoi sin a thosaigh tú ag scríobh.

> I just get annoyed when I see Americans making fun of other cultures in their tv shows.

Mar shampla?
Ar chuala tú riamh, nó ar léigh tú cuntas Fintan O Toole, Kevin Myers, nó Colum Kenny ag tabhairt faoi Teilifís De Lorean? An cuma leat iad a bheith ag caitheamh anuas go fíochmhar ar an nGaeilg agus ar éinne a thacaigh léi trí ghrabhróg leathstaisiúin teilifíse a chaitheamh chuici?

> And I'd just like to say I hope things get better in Afghanistan and it all stops.

Táim féin leis an té atá thíos agus ar son cúiseanna eile ar nós Leonard Peltier a shaorú, ach ní chreidfinn nach bhfuil roinnt éigin de mhuintir Mheiriceá ag teacht le mo thuairim. Tá go leor ar m'aithne abhus in Éirinn nach dtiocfadh liom ar chúiseanna i ngach cearn den domhan, cás an lucht siúil in Éirinn, fágaim.

> I appreciate all your points. You're all very good critics!

Measaim go raibh siad iontach dea-bhéasach leat, d'ainneoin a ionsaitheach is bhí tú leo an chéad lá.

> Also, to .. Fintan, ...... lines would blur if we shared our cultures.

A Chailín, is ortsa atá an 'Blur' i gcónaí, ach tá tú á theilgean amach ar an saol i do thimpeall agus ag lochtú fút is tharat. Níl aon chiall leis an 'blur' seo a mbíonn tú ag tagairt dó i dtólamh.
'More light' arsa an chailleach, nuair a bhí an teach trí thine!
Níl ann ach sinn féin agus sin a bhfuil ann.
What is not us, is and what is us is not.

> For example, when English people invaded Ireland many years ago, we all spoke Irish.

Tá a fhios agat go maith gur chuid de na hÉireannaigh a tharraing isteach iad. Cuimhnigh chomh maith go mba chainteoirí dúchais Gaeilge 75% d'Arm Shasana ag Cath Cionn tSáile sa bhliain 1601 AD! B'fhéidir go raibh do shinsear féin ina measc? An bhfuil a fhios agat go cinnte nach raibh agus go bhfuil sibh gan cháim? Bhí roinnt de na Búrcaigh, roinnt Gearaltach, Buitléarach, Barrach ann agus níl a fhios cé eile nach raibh.

> Now we don't.

Cén leithscéal atá ag muintir na hÉireann? Níl an Sasanach i gceannas ar an gcuid is mó den tír le fada. Thosaigh scoileanna na 26 co. ag teagasc Gaeilge bordáil ar cheithre scór bliain ó shoin. Sacadh an Ghaeilg isteach i mBunreacht na bliana 1937, breis is trí fhicead bliain ó shoin agus is ann a fágadh í, cuid mhaith. Ba bhreá le Gaeil Mheiriceá go mbeadh an Ghaeilg foghlamtha againn faoin am seo. Cén fáth nach bhfuil?


> Also, in England, you'll find some Irish folk songs to which the words have been changed. The English say that it's THEIR folk song.

Is leo gach amhrán Béarla, dar liom. Danny Boy, The Wild Colonial Boy, srl. Bídís acu agus fáilte. 'The streets of Derry' faoin duine bocht ag dreapadh suas ar an gcroich i gcearnóg an Guildhall, is amhrán anall as Sasain é, ach gur athraíodh focal thall is abhus. Sin an Blur arís, is dócha.

> The lines blur between Irish and English. Do you understand my point?

Ní thuigim, ach is tábhachtach go dtuigeann tusa an 'blur' seo de do chuid.

> The world would be a boring place if we shared all our cultures. Since tv has become popular, Ireland is becoming Americanised.

Is é sin, ANGLO-Americanised. Mar níl aon teanga dá gcuid féin mar ghléas cosanta acu lena meanma féin a chothú. Chaitheadar an Ghaeilg i dtraipisí, cuid mhaith.

> Just another blur.

Ní ghoilleann sé a dhath ormsa. Táimse féin slán uaidh an chuid is mó den lá. Fágfaidh mé Sligeach i nGaeilg Dé Domhnaigh agus labhróidh mé le duine éicint eile i Luimneach, nó i dTiobraid Árann, i nGaeilg. Má tharlaíonn nach mar sin a bheas gach am, is cuma. An chuid is mó de na glaonna agus scéalta gutháin, is Gaeilg iad. Is féidir le duine saol sách iomlán a chaitheamh le Gaeilg i nGalltacht Éireann, ach beartú chuige.

> I think our accents are even changing.

Tá. Tá córas gutaí Bhéarla na hÉireann athraithe go mór le glúin anuas. Bíonn défhoghar ag clainn mo dheirféar san áit a mbeadh guta fada agam féin agus a mhalairt droim ar ais. Is mó is cosúil a gcanúint siadsan le Béarla Shonia Uí Shúilleabháin, ná le mo chuidse Béarla, d'ainneoin blas Chorcaí aicise. Is é an córas céanna gutaí atá ag an nglúin aníos trí chéile, ar neamhchead d'ionad a dtógála.

> I don't mean to offend any person of any culture, race, religon, whatever. Thanx for everything you've said. I'll take it all on board.
> Slán!!

Ábhar dóchais ó Dhia againn an 'slán' le comhartha iontais bocht an leithscéil.

A Chailín,

You're coming around, but you're coming around so slowly that it may be described as being a bit too Irish! If you think I'm being racist now, despite being Irish myself, consider the fact that linguists the world over use the term 'irelandization' to describe the situation that you witness around you in Ireland and the way that the 'Irish people' (if we can call them that) have treated 'their'/'Your' language.
You have had the gift of seeing for some small flash of time, the TRUTH and despite your own excuses and obstructions of race and religion which come from a society of misinformation, you have to follow what you have seen. If you don't, you will have retreated from the truth. Do you want your children to realise someday that you have done so. It's up to you now and to your immediate friends to start and not to stop until you are all speaking Irish to beat the band.

Má bhíonn tú ag Oireachtas na Gaeilge amach in eireaball na Bliana so chugainn i nGaoth Dobhair, ba mhaith liom labhairt leat le go nglacfainn misneach as do theacht slán ón tseafóid sin ar a dtugaim saol Béarla na hÉireann, mar a bhfuil na madaí scaoilte is clocha ceangailte. Níl bun ná barr leis.
Seachain an 'blur' úd. Ní fiú a bheith leis. Fág ag Yeats, beannacht Dé leis, an Celtic Twilight and all that blur - leave it where it belongs : ag iompar na bhfód.

Cuimhnigh an dá rogha atá agat :

(1) Glac chugat do theanga cheart; tuigfidh tú an saol thart ort níos soiléire ná ariamh mar go mbeidh an bun ceart fút ó thús deireadh an lae;

nó / or

(2) Spend the rest of your life talking about it like the rest of these slaves that inhabit planet oirland; they live in the data-age and they think it's the information-age. What's informative about their lives? Can they say anything for themselves without regurgatating some one else's headline? If a third of the oirish people spoke French, a third spoke Spanish and the other third spoke English, we mightn't be such slaves of the Daily Snail. Their redemption might be more plausible.

- What did the hero say next Mammy? -
Oh, .. oh,
- 'Oi saey, Oi'll halve you all to naw that Oim Oirish too' said Sir Boneoh! -
- Did he speak in Oirish Mammy?-
- Eh, -

It's make your mind up time. You needn't tell us if you're going for it. If you do, you will enjoy what it is like to be Irish, to be awake and to be geo-culturally orientated for the rest of your living experience. You may then wish to understand and treasure the cultures of other peoples in their own trials and tribulations down through the ages. What more do you want?

Go on, take the plunge. Amach leat!

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James (spider-wl071.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.199.51)
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Question:

Was Eamon De Valera Irish born? Was he a "native speaker"? Is he well respected amongst the majority of Irish nationals?"

Question:

Does the Irish history involve a continual assimilation of outsiders ie: Norsemen, Normans?

Question:

Was St. Patrick Irish born? Was he a "native speaker"? Is he generally well respected amongst Irish nationals?

Points to ponder.

Go raibh mo agat.

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stu (libr.aig.com - 167.230.38.7)
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 02:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cailin, the reason you had to express your original ideas in English was because at some point in the past one of your ancestors decided that particular language would be more useful. How would you feel now if someone from a Gaeltacht told you that an outsider like YOU had no business using or learning Irish ?

Stu (is as Béal Feirste mé, ach anios tá mé i mo chonaí anseo san Astráil)

slán agus beannacht

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Clemens Gaumannmüller (193.171.150.66)
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 06:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't see the point of someone (of course I see it but I don't really understand it) who thinks that foreign people should not learn the language of country they appreciate...isn't this a sign of interest and of respect to try to communicate within a country in the language of it's natives? Here, in Vienna, where I come from, there are a lot of tourists who do not even try to speak German, they just hope to find some person who speaks English or French(for example)...
And nowadays it's just impossible to avoid a mixture of cultures in a country for the world gets smaller and smaller; the only way would be to maybe completeley isolate a country from the rest of the world and I think nobody wants that??
Correct me, if you think different

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stu (libr.aig.com - 167.230.38.7)
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

SPECIAL ADVERTISING FEATURE

Welcome to Cailin-world.

Here in this brand new Irish theme park you can relive the Ireland of your imagination. Have your photo taken in front of our life size paintings showing traditional Irish scenes. Take home a souvenir tea-towel or coaster with pictures of women in shawls, men drinking porter and lovely thatched cottages.

Everything is safely under glass (rose tinted of course) so you can't actually touch or interact with it and the commentary is all in English so you don’t have to think too hard.

All references to pre celtic events have been safely air-brushed out so as not to confuse visitors, and like-wise you will see that all the clocks and calendars are frozen in 1965.

Entry is free but you have to do a brief test in Irish Language and History at the entrance. Only those who fail are actually admitted. Step this way Cailin…………

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Liam Ó Briain (newcache2.indigo.ie - 194.125.133.220)
Posted on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chailín,

Is cainteoir Gaeilge míse a rugadh agus tógadh sa Ghalltacht. Níl cainteoir tusa agus níl suim dá laghad agat don Ghaeilge. De dheasca sin ná bí ag caint. Ba chóir go mbeadh seans ag daoine chun Gaeilge a fhoghlam sna Stáit Aontaithe agus áiteanna eile thar lear. Fintan is tír álainn é an Astrail ach tá cúpla fadhbanna acu- fós faoi smacht na Sasanaigh agus an Banríon, cineachas acu d'Éireann agus aineolach iad faoi stair na hÉireann(teanga againn agus poblacht muid). Do bhuaileas le iomaí daoine agus cheap siad go rabhamar chuid den Bhreatain. Níl 1.43+ milliúin cainteoirí in Éirinn ach timpeall 50,000. James ,
bhí sheanathair agus máthair Dev ina chainteoirí Gaeilge. Seosamh MacMuirí tabhair cic go thóin gach mac léinn nach bhfuil creideamh acu sa Ghaeilge agus iad gan bheith toilteanach páistí a thógáil trí Gaeilge.

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Colm Ó Dúill (p319.as1.qkr.cork1.eircom.net - 159.134.181.63)
Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2001 - 06:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Chuig Chách,
Let me introduce myself. Im 16, from Corcaigh(parents from Cill Mhantáin), in 5th year and I wouldnt call myself a 'speaker' of the language no matter how much i would like to be one. I myself would have SIMILAR views as Cáilín.
Though Cáilín went overboard in her statements which at sometimes were totally non PC its disgusting they way some of posters have attacked her, "Ah but what would I know? *grin* I'm just a culture-thieving old colonial with a soft-spot for the tongue of my ancestors...... "
Especially the person 'stu' who started his post by the line "SPECIAL ADVERTISING FEATURE ". That is uncalled for!
"If you want to preserve your culture, then fine...[but WE are not the ones 'attacking' it (thank your neighbours for that)]...."
I don't think the Britons, or English are actually ATTACKING the language. They did nearly wip it out in the 19th and 20th century, but I don't see any Britons imposing their views on the Rep. and the rest of the World saying "you can't speak Irish" in the C. 21th!! As far as I can see it it is gobalisation that is destroying many of the worlds languages and cultures. The "world" is more like a ******* 'gobal village' than anything else. And no prizes for guessing who is the worlds biggest and richest economy in this global village. I would rather 'hop into bed' with the Britons than the Yanks. To me the Britons are the lesser of the two evils.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for Irish as a 'language' and not just some subject teachers supposably! teach 9-4, 5 days a week. I speak Gaeilge as much as I can. I can see how it is easier to spealk Irish outside the Rep. than inside. INSIDE NEARLY everyones white and Irish, no matter what religious domination. One does not feel the need to advertise their native culture. Whats the point, we are all Irish. OUTSIDE however one feels the need to show outers who you are. I lived in the Mid-East and know what it is to be different, a 'stranger'.
Those in the Republic have better step back and look at what were have become as 'Irish'. Today we are a rich, selfish, prosperious, English speaking, mobile(cell phone) hugging, soccer loving, mammals. Our idea of 'craic' is getting pissed. Our idea of a Sunday is shopping in ******* Dunnes, or Tescos wondering which pre-packed plastic cardboard shite will I buy instead of cooking a PROPER meal. Instead of sitting with the kids, telling them a story, or singing a song we watch Coranation Street, Eastenders, Telly Bingo, Winning Streak...etc...That square bloddy box never ceases to amaze me with the amount of utter crap it can shurn out. And there we are LOVING every minute of it. God what has happebed to our culture, pasttimes? What has happened to the sense of the pride of being IRISH! A thing we NEVER NEVER had. The ability to call ourselves 'Irish'. I freedom unparalled. And how do we spend this freedom? I tell you. I bed with the Dollar. Thats what! We in the Rep. need a revival of Celtdom. And the ONLY people who can give use this revival is the Irish people themselves!! Its a bloody shame this site will not be seen by the Yuppies of the Republic! Look at yourselves. We disgust only ourselves.
I would agree that a person of Irish descent has the right to call themselves what they want. **** it, in this day and age you can call yourself what you want and do what you want. For crying out loud there are IRISH Buddist monks. After all what is America. The vast vast majority of those in North and South America are immigrants from mainly Europe. America does not have a 'proper' culture of its own. America is a 'melting pot' of every god-damn nation on Earth. Going by what Cáilín said Americans of English origin should not speak English because political they are not English but American. The same with French speaking Canadians. Using the logic of Cáilín they sould not speak French but make up a language called 'Canadian'! A Dhia a Cáilín!! However You cannot have it both ways. You are either fully American, Canadian, Austrian...or Fully Irish. But one cannot be fully both. I believe the proper term for those of Irish desent and American birth is 'Irish-American'. Or am i mistaken?
Bhuel ceapaim go bhfuil is leor sin. Más ba mhaith leat scríobh chugam is é colm_doyle_@hotmail.com mo ríomhphost.
Is mise,
Le meas,
Colm Ó Dúill.
http://colm.cjb.net
Contae Chorcaí, Poblacht na hÉireann(Ireland)

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James (spider-wk012.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.198.152)
Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2001 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Colm,

I must say that I am a bit concerned with what appears to be a rather poor image that we (Americans) seem to have in the eyes of young Irish men and women. I've spent a ton of time in other countries and have seen, first hand, what we call the "Ugly American." Let me assure you that it is equally offensive to me, and most "normal" Americans, as it is to you.

Secondly, I'd like to get your opinion regarding Americans who try to speak Irish. Do we offend you? If so, why?

The greatest problem that we face in America, and I would suggest other Western nations face a similar, yet not as pervasive issue, is the hyphenization of our nation. I am an American. My parents are as well as are their parents. Due to the rather fractious nature of my family tree, I'm not terribly sure when or where the Irish ends and the American begins. Never the matter, though--I am an American who happens to be of Irish descent.

I would offer to you that we as Americans of Irish descent are just as proud of that heritage as you are of your Irish heritage. Perhaps that is what fuels our desire to visit your country, attempt to experience that uniqueness that is Ireland and to make a reasonable attempt to speak the Irish language.

I certainly hope that our attempt to connect with the land and language of our ancestors does not offend. Ireland IS part of our culture but perhaps not wholly our culture.

Interested in your point of view.

James

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richard white (sdn-ar-002flnicep332.dialsprint.net - 168.191.251.238)
Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2001 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And to add to James' comments - let us hope Colm is not so offended by the 'lesser of two evils' (America)that he stops using the computer (probably with Bill Gates' operating system on it), his cell phone (debatably a Motorola concept), the internet (if not invented, at least popularized by an American putting up a web page to interface with the SLAC database 10 years ago) or the telephone he dialed up his ISP with ( automated dialing having been invested by an American undertaker).

As to America being a melting pot - admitted, with pride. Now if we can only get those backwards, isolationist Irish to learn to live together ......

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Colm Ó Dúill (p262.as1.qkr.cork1.eircom.net - 159.134.181.6)
Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James,
Far from it. Americans(or anybody else) who do speak Irish don't offend me. I rather envy it. Its the Irish born attitude towards Gaeilge that annoys me. I have more correspondants/friends outside Éire that enjoy conversing in the language than inside. The latter figure being NÁID. And thats both a shame and a disgrace.
No I dont hate Americans. Its that superiority complex and what the nation stands for that really gets me going. Is it safe to let George Bush be a figure head?!
Richard,
I cant say anything but nice comeback to you. Fair points. Maybe we would still be in the Industrial age had it not been for American advances. Cogar, Bill céard? : )
Is meas,
le meas,
Colm.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (proxy-server3.ul.ie - 136.201.1.52)
Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Is spéisiúla an cheist seo gach achar den bhealach. Chuir mé féin suntas sa tagairt arís ag Colm anseo thuas do 'white and Irish', rud a bhí ag Cailín fosta, is cuimhin libh. Tharla gur thagair sé dearfach go leor do chúrsaí creidimh, is dóigh liom gur 'Irish born' is ciall do 'white' aige, cé nach maith liom é. Tá a fhios agam fear gorm amháin a tógadh le Gaeilg na Gaeltachta, bail ó Dhia air. Ní Éireannach go dtí é. Níor mhaith liom leathcheal a dhéanamh ar éinne eile mar é.

Gné eile a tharraing m'iúl is ea an sliocht so a leanas :

> However You cannot have it both ways. You are either fully American, Canadian, Austrian...or Fully Irish. But one cannot be fully both.

A Cholm,

Measaim go ngoilleann sé ort nach 'fully Irish' furmhór Éireannach na linne seo. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil sé tugtha faoi deara agat i gceart go fóill. 'Semi-Irish' is ea an chuid is mó de mhuintir na hÉireann, dar liom féin. Is é sin, an dream a rugadh in Éirinn. Ciallaíonn breith i dtír seach a chéile, roinnt mhaith, ach NÍ CHINNTÍONN sé a dhath ag an am céanna! Léirigh tú féin an méid sin ar bhealach :

> Those in the Republic have {/had?] better step back and look at what were [/ they?] have become as 'Irish'. Today we are a rich, selfish, prosperious, English speaking, mobile(cell phone) hugging, soccer loving, mammals. Our idea of 'craic' is getting pissed. Our idea of a Sunday is shopping in ...

Más é an 'globalization' máthair an oilc, tá an tÉireannach saor ó locht, roinnt, dar leat. Ní scaoilfinnse leis chomh bog céanna. Chonaic cuid mhaith de na hÉireannaigh an fhírinne lom agus níor ghlacadar chucu féin an fhreagracht a luíonn orthu, mar Éireannaigh, más 'Éireannaigh' ar chor ar bith iad.

Is é croílár na ceiste, an bhfuil an t-aos óg, tusa agus cailín, chun glacadh leis an scéal mar atá, nó an bhfuil sibh chun an scéal a athrú? Is féidir an scéal a athrú ar bhun an duine aonair, nó ar bhun teaghlaigh.

Cuimhnigh, mar shampla :

Ní dhiúltaíonn an guthán póca don Ghaeilg. (bíodh nach nglacann mo cheannsa le síneadh fada)
Mar gheall go n-íocann an chuid is mó de na daoine thart orainn a gcuid cánach i mBéarla, níl sé d'iachall orainn a dhéanamh amhlaidh. Tiocfaidh foirm chánach chugat, bille gutháin srl., ded' ainneoin, i nGaeilg, ach a iarraidh.
An té a shantaíonn an phóit, bíodh sé amhlaidh, ach ní ghlacfainnse leis gur 'globalization' is údar leis agus más dúil le muintir na hÉireann a bheith gallda, cén fáth go mbeinnse ná tusa lena gcaoineadh. Bíodh acu. Is dream caillte cuid mhaith díobh. Cad fút féin?

Fair amach duit féin, comhairligh a bhfuil thart ort agus coinnigh an misneach!

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Fintan (neta.lisp.com.au - 203.21.133.124)
Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 09:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Colm, a chara,
Feel better now? *grin*

Fintan

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Aonghus (vpn.parthus.com - 62.221.5.1)
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 04:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil (nó go raibh riamh) a léithéid agus "Fully " aon rud ann.
Tóg mé féin.
Rugadh agus tógadh i mBÁC mé. Tá Gaeilge agus Béarla ón gcliamháin agam. In aois 11 d'fhoghlaim mé Gearmainís.
Is Caitleachach Romhanach mé, deanaim iarracht an creideamh a bheith i gcroílár mo shaol. Nuair a bhíos 22, tar éis staidéar a dhéanamh ar innealtóireacht, chuas go dtí an Gearmáin agus chonaíos ann ar feadh 10 mbliain - agus mé ann is beag Béarla a labhair mé (is beag Gaeilge freisin, faraor). Tá léitheoireacht leathan déanta agam. Is Oir Ghéarmánach í mo bhean.

Bíonn tionchar ag na rudaí seo ar fad ar mo fhéiníulacht.
Tá mé "Fully Aonghus"!

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Liam O Briain (newcache2.indigo.ie - 194.125.133.220)
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Colm and Cailín,

Why don't you speak Irish? Because you are afflicted with the same condition of 90 per cent of Irish people an inferiority complex. As you can see most of us Irish and American speakers on the Daltai forum did not grow up in Gaeltachts and yet Irish is our daily Language so ye have no excuses. The truth is that the Americans show far greater love of our culture and Language than most Irish people. Ye all know my view that only us Irish speakers are the true Irish today and there is a blur between an Irish people who follow English soccer, read english newspapers, look at english tv, follow the Royal family etc.

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Fintan (neta.lisp.com.au - 203.21.133.124)
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 06:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Liam, a chara!

Go díreach! Sios leis na 'begrudgers'! *maolgháire!*

Do sheirbhíseach,
Creag 'Fintan' Batty

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Colm Ó Dúill (p841.as2.cork1.eircom.net - 159.134.219.73)
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 03:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Liam,
Bhuel, níl fhios agam faoi Chailín, ach níl Ghaeilge mo theanga laethúil toisc táim níos mó ábalta caint a choinneáil le duine trí Bhéarla. Tá sé mar gheall air (go bhfuil sé d'fhoghlaigh)? go dona i scoil. Sin é fhahb an Roinn Oideachas agus Eolaíochta.
Oifig An tAire: 00-353-(0)1-8892276
www.education.ie
Maolgháire!
Is mise,
le meas,
Colm.

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Colm Ó Dúill (p841.as2.cork1.eircom.net - 159.134.219.73)
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A thiarcais! Rinne mé dearmad.
"As you can see most of us Irish and American speakers on the Daltai forum did not grow up in Gaeltachts and yet Irish is our daily Language so ye have no excuses".
Táim i gconaí i gCarraig Uí Leighin NÓ "CARRIGALINE" i nGalltacht an Chorcaí. Níl Gaeltacht é.
Slán tamall,
Colm.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (proxy-server3.ul.ie - 136.201.1.52)
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Bail ó Dhia ort, a Cholm, tá tú ag déanamh maith go leor. Feicim thú ag cabhrú le ceisteanna Gaeilge anseo is ansiúd.

Go mbainir sult as cuimse as an teanga!

Níl aon easpa misnigh ort do dhuine ded' aois. Sheas tú an fód anseo mar a dhéanfadh fear, tar éis duit labhairt amach. Dá mbeadh leath na tíre den aos óg chomh maith ina gcuid Gaeilge is atá tú féin, ba iontach an dream i dtír sinn.

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Cá ilí n (1cust186.tnt1.dub2.ie.uudial.net - 213.116.40.186)
Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2001 - 09:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It's me again. I didn't realise when I wrote this message that I'd get such a response. The reason I don't speak Gaeilge is because I was brought up speaking English. When I'm older, I plan to live in the Gaeltacht. Until then, I have to finish school. I have to say again, I have nothing against different races or nations. I, myself have an English sirname. My father has an Irish sirname and my mother has an Irish sirname. I grew up with an English sirname. Does that mean that I'm English-Irish? No. I've never set foot in England!!! Ever! My fathers parents were also Irish so it must be my great grandparents that are English. That, to me, means nothing. Why? Because on my passport it says: Irish. It doesn't matter if I was brought up with English culture (I wasn't) I'm still 100% Irish.
That's what I mean. I agree with a little of what Colm says. We are all the same culture in Ireland so we don't emphasise it. I think you only truly realise your differences when you go abroad.
It boils down to this. I don't care if your father is Irish, if your gran is Irish and if all your relations are Irish. If you're brought up in America, you're American. Not Irish-American. I have no problems with people learning the language. I have a problem with people maintaining they are Irish-American. America has all sorts of problems. I think one of the reasons for this is possibly all the differences. So many races so many cultures. High school shootings, race attacks. Now why does this happen so so so much in America??? I'm certainly not saying it doesn't happen anywhere else. I'm just wondering why there's so much of it in the US.



Now listen to me: I AM IRISH. FULLY IRISH. I WAS BORN AND RAISED AND STILL LIVE IN IRELAND. I HAVE NEVER LIVED ANYWHERE ELSE. I find that there are too many differences between Americans and Irish, one of them being humour. NOW, YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF THE SAME QUESTION; WHAT IS YOUR NATIONALITY? In my mind, you may say that your daddy is Irish, that you speak Irish, do Irish dancing and have lots of good oul craic but you may not say that you are Irish or Irish-American, Irish-Australian or anything of the sort.
Thank you ladies and gentlemen and goodbye.
Go and learn the language. Just don't claim you're Irish.
Email: mrsbradpig@hotmail.com

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Richard (sdn-ar-002flnicep217.dialsprint.net - 168.191.252.233)
Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2001 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I feel once again I must respond and defend "America's problems" - we have 'so many' problems because we have 'so many' people - why, my state alone (Florida) could fill up 4 Irelands. Two school shootings in two years among 300 million people can not be compared to what happens in a wee little piece of an island with a few scattered people living in thatched roof cottages on it. As far as racial problems, perhaps you should review postings on this board, or Gaeilge-B - seems there are a few problems in the old country.

As far as claiming Irish-American, or whatever hyphen you prefer, thanks to the good old First Amendment of the US Constitution, we can claim whatever we like, without the threat of the imposition of mind control such as you propose. Even, Unhappy Irish Person, if you could impose such control in your tiny little principality, please don't be offended if we choose to ignore your mandate , or even fail to notice that it exists.

And finally, I can not help but picture your English ancestor merrily carving notches into the sticks carried by Irish children when he caught them speaking Irish to be punished when enough unpronounceable Gaeilge words were spoken.... perhaps he is the reason that you don't speak the language of your other ancestors .... hard to say, since we here in Old America rejected (oh yes, ever so violently, and ever so successfully)the English attempt to dictate to us how we should live.... didn't take 800 years, either.

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Seosamh (3cust162.tnt52.nyc3.da.uu.net - 67.193.95.162)
Posted on Monday, December 24, 2001 - 12:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Richard mentions the size of our country, something people often forget when they hear news stories from America. Don't forget either that -- by their nature -- news stories are most often negative. Ireland is probably even more misunderstood in the world than the U.S. for that reason. Then there's anti-Americanism, rife in Ireland, which distorts the real picture for reasons that have little to do with us.

There's yet another reason that explains things like coverage of school shootings, etc. Violence in U.S. schools dropped by 50% during the late 90's, even though our own news media increased its coverage of the issue by 700%. That's a huge disconnect between facts and coverage. Our own tendency for periodic, rather Calvinistic soul searching is the cause of this. We don't understand this ourselves so it's little surprise that others don't either.

Of course, like Ireland and every other place on the face of the globe, we have special problems. We deal with them. Better than many other countries. I have heard black civil rights leaders hear say that other countries could learn from us, and I've read the same thing from Europeans who once criticized us and are now faced with the same problems of racial and ethnic diversity. Our civil rights legislation influenced other countries, never the other way around. The protests of a prominent African-American after a hotel refused to honor her reservations because of her skin color brought about such legislation in Brazil, to give just one such example.

There is a difference between the words 'Irish' and 'Irish-American'. When I first visited Ireland people would ask me expectantly if I considered myself Irish. I would answer with no hesitation that I was American. (The people were always disappointed.) But I also have no hesitation in saying that I am Irish-American. Even though I am also German by ancestry. There's a whole sociology behind that -- See Daniel Pat Moynihan's book _Beyond the Melting Pot_ -- but in any case my strong willed Irish grandfather determined our identity. Irish-Americans have varying levels of real Irishness, which Irish people, Americans and others can see and which some psychologists have either studied or encounter in their offices. One German woman I met who makes a special study of Ireland, even goes so far as to say, 'I think few people realize how Irish the United States is'. Both the Celtic and Ulster Scots influences here are probably underestimated.

The U.S. is not monolithic and is not lacking a culture (as you stated above). It has a wonderful, diverse, complex culture with lots of choice. You should open your mind to others' experiences. Hold off on comments about the identities and cultures of others until you have enough knowledge to have some insights. Then you can make your observations (which may be more accurate than those of some of us). But don't lecture: spare people the judgmentalism.

Finally, it is great that you are thinking of living in the Gaeltacht. I have friends who have done that. But you can be an Irish-speaker where you already are.

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James (wcs1.norfolk.nipr.mil - 198.26.132.101)
Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2001 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And here's my 2 cents worth.

The reason we have such a perception as a "violent" culture here in the U.S. is two-fold. Without a doubt, this image, and I must stress the word "IMAGE" is an issue of coverage as so perfectly stated by Seosamh. He did far more justice to that aspect of our "image" than I could hope to do. Therefore, I'll say nothing more on that front other than coverage equals image. That's what publicity is all about.

The other component of our "violence" is rooted far more deeply than front page and headline mismanagement. The cancer that is killing this country is its paucity of faith and values. We have systematically, as a nation, eliminated God and Judeo-Christian values from our society. The values under which this nation was founded, I might add. Just read our constitution and count the number of times the word "God" is written. This seems to have escaped the majority of our leadership, however. The "coverage" now goes to what is called the "vocal minority" and that is what is driving this nation. Our legislators and lawmakers respond to opinion polls rather than moral and ethical values. They cater to the loudest voice, regardless of the ethical or moral condition of the platform from which that voice shouts its demands. No more can a child be raised in a home that attempts to instill basic societal values that are born of religious teachings and then go to a school that re-inforces these same values. A child in school today can't pray out loud, can't carry a Holy Bible and can't wear a t-shirt that expresses his or her Christian belief without facing administrative repercussions. Children en mass can wear any form of satanic pariphenalia, listen to songs glorifying violence and desecrate the Holy Mother in art class and be protected under the first amendment, however.

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe there should be any state mandated religion (the Taliban has given a great example of why this is a bad idea) but I DO believe a nation should embody the basic values of its society and like it or not, this society is BASICALLY one of Judeo-christian ethics.

These same basic values are shared by ALL of the world's major religions and a government that embraces them poses no threat to anyone. In fact, humankind, the world over, embraces the tenets of community involvement and personal responsiblity. They are the fundamentals of peaceful societal interaction and are taught in every religion, Christian, Hebrew, Muslim or any other. It is the fabric that binds a society.

We in the US have methodically unraveled this fabric and have shifted from community involvement to self involvement and from personal responsibility to community responsibility. The community is expected to cater to every whim and every desire of every individual. When this individual suffers some malady or misfortune as a result of his or her lack of personal responsibility then society is supposed to respond and make amends to the individual! This is preposterous, but it is exactly what we have done, and are continuing to do in this "great nation" of ours.

With rights come responsibility but we have cultivated an environment that abdicates responsibility. The "if it feels good, do it" mentality that came to prominence in the 60's is now the mentality that is leading this nation. I don't mean just the politicians, either. The teachers, the people that spend more time with children than do the parents of the children, are of that same mentality. This is one of the chief reasons for the increase in parochial school enrollment and home schooling. Parents are taking control, albeit in small numbers, and they are doing so in direct response to the ever-widening gap between the will of the people and the will of the poll-driven leadership of America. Until we speak out, with our ballots, with our dollars and with our active involvement, we will continue down this slippery slope of BLIND tolerance and irrational compassion.

There--I've said my piece. There's more but I'll save that for another time.

Le meas,

James

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Liam Ó Briain (newcache1.indigo.ie - 194.125.133.245)
Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2001 - 03:35 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

While reading Tim Pat Coogans definitive work on the Irish abroad" Wherever Green is Worn" I came across some information which may be interesting about the Irish Language. Peter King NY Republican Congressman had Irish speaking Grandparents on his fathers side from Inishbofin Island. Boston College has a programme for Irish Studies and for it's MA Irish is required with the result that today Irish is spoken in the corridors of Boston College. This was not in the book -half of George Washingtons Continental army were Irish speaking Presbyterians.

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Alan Ó hAoire (proxy.bloodservices.ca - 154.11.218.34)
Posted on Thursday, December 27, 2001 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"NOW, YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF THE SAME QUESTION; WHAT IS YOUR NATIONALITY?"

Why is this a question I HAVE to ask myself? I think Cailín has a bit too much negativity on the mind. I find it amusing that someone could be so hung up on something so insubstantial.

"NOW, YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF THE SAME QUESTION; WHAT IS THE COLOUR OF YOUR HAIR? I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A BROWN HAIRED PERSON, I HAVE GROWN UP WITH BROWN HAIR AND I AM DEEPLY HURT WHEN PEOPLE DYE THEIR HAIR BROWN" yeah, yeah.

There is a world of difference between every person, that is what makes us all the more alike.

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Fintan (seal.pnc.com.au - 203.13.174.107)
Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 07:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Cúpla focal..

*NATIONALISM IS THE LAST REFUGE OF SCOUNDRELS.* (Deliberate misquote)

As to the PERCEPTION of violence in the USA, gee, let's not even MENTION the insane levels of unnecessary firearm ownership, SUPPOSEDLY endorsed by the Constitution (which it in FACT is not)..... let's look at a society which pays lip-service to pluralism and tolerance while entrenching the politics of dispossession at every turn.

With all due respect Cailín, who gives a flying TOSS what nationality people consider themselves to be? As I have stated earlier, maybe the world would be a much happier place if we spent a litle LESS time obsessing about what is uniquely MINE as opposed to YOURS, eh?
*Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination* -THIS is what makes the world such a fascinating place, if we can just allow ourselves to overcome the fear of change and fear of the 'other'.

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Seosamh (1cust248.tnt12.nyc9.da.uu.net - 67.192.250.248)
Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 12:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Scríobh Fintan:

*Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination*

I know we are supposed to be the epitome of racism here in the U.S. and the Lord knows we have quite a history in that respect (all of it the result of institutions and processes of European origin, mind). I thought Brooklyn, where I live, was a riotous ethnic mix. Having just spent the Christmas holidays with family in my home area in Northern New Jersey, it felt like Fintan's phrase above.

Last night my brother, his wife of Dutch ancestry, my Korean nephew and his Kenyan high school friend (computer wiz who wants to go into animation) were sitting around trying out the new fondue set. My other nephew (also Korean) was in the den with Play Station 2, a blond kid and another whose family comes from somewhere between Chile and Turkestan.

People there are slightly curious about ethnic and religous backgrounds if they know each other. Dutch Protestants can tell you when Eid will fall this year. In the shopping centers, it is such a parade of races that no one has the time to pay much attention to what you are. 'Profiling' takes place: the Indian man at a food court restaurant just assumed that my nephew and I were separate customers (the nerve). Of course, there are other places where 90% of the population are white or black or even Italian or Irish. But that's part of the mix and they're probably doomed communities anyway.

This is no problem because, as James points out, core moral values are rather similar everywhere. Yes, there's stress. The blue collar atheists who live next door to my brother have a son doing war duty and planning to marry a young local Muslim woman. HER father is having conniptions because she wants to marry an infidel and HIS father is shocked that Muslims pay for sons' weddings, not daughters', and he had been planning to retire next year.

People in Ireland are just starting to see this inevitable result of the world getting smaller. They would do well to study the question of identity in the U.S., Canada and Australia.

Newcomers to Ireland will take the culture and language seriously if the Irish themselves do. If they hear Irish people disparaging the Irish language and refusing to speak it or even learn it . . . bad. Best to let learning Irish be a useful way for people to integrate into Irish society.

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goatbeater (203.108.164.27)
Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 03:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm with Fintan.

In fact I'm tryinh to learn Gaelic in Sydney so would be pleased to hook up with him sometime.

I was born in Dublin; have lived in England, New Zealand, Australia.

I'm 50 and have in recent years taken to the bodhran and the whistle, and trying to 'get' Gaelic.

Some would call me a plastic paddy and they can get &^%!&ed.

I have a right to return to the roots and I applaud anyone else doing this. I also believe that Gaelic is best spoken more - that is the best way to protect it and have it blossom.

Fintan if you read this please feel free to email me on mcagenda@ozemail.com.au

Tog e go bog e

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Liam Ó Briain (newcache1.indigo.ie - 194.125.133.245)
Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá ábhar níos tabhachtach ag tharlú ag an am seo. Tá ach 2,600 teaghlaigh i nGaeltachtaí na hÉireann agus an Ghaeilge mar ghnáth theanga labhartha acu agus 900 teaghlaigh eile dhátheangach de réir píosa ag Nollaig Ó Gadhra san Tuarascáil(Irish Times) seo cháite. Ní bheidh Gaeilge ar an bhfód deich bhlian ó seo. Theip ar na heagraisí Gaeilge chun an Ghaeilge a chur á labhairt athuair mar ghnáth- theanga mhuintir na hÉireann uile. Ba chóir dóibh anois é a chaomhnú sa Ghaeltacht agus ná bac leis an Galltacht. The first thing that should be done is Mollaim dlí speisíalta tógála don Ghaeltacht gan éinne a chur fúthu ann roimh scrúdú labhartha agus an pás ná 80%. An dara rud ná daoine Gaeltachta thar lear a mhealladh ar ais. An triú rud ná do Chonradh na Gaeilge gach teach acu sa Ghalltacht a chur ar dhíol agus airgid sin a usáid sa Ghaeltacht agus chun Gaeltacht a bhunú i nGaillimh. Ó bhunú Saorstát Éireann theip siad.
And for those of you learners-Irish language organisations should forget about the English speaking area if Irish is in terminal decline in the Gaeltachts and use their money and resources in the Gaeltachts instead. Sell up the HQ's they own in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and other counties. Set up a Gaeltacht in Galway City as well. With 20,000 Irish speakers in the USA(MORE THEN IN iRELAND) why not entice them back.

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Cá ilí n (1cust229.tnt3.dub2.ie.uudial.net - 213.116.44.229)
Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Since my last post, people I think have reacted a little better. I do realise what I am saying is a matter of opinion. I think Seosamh in particular is very informative and I appreciate your comments greatlt. Thank you. Thank you for the fact that America is indeed a large large country. That is a very good point that I didn't take into consideration, thank you again.
To Alan Ó hAoire, thank you very much for your post. I'd like to remind people that Im not deeply angered by this whole subject. I'm just stating my opinion. Alan stated his opinion very well!
From all your posts I have learned a lot, I really have. Thanks a lot! Keep learning Irish, it's exactly what I am doing. Thanks for your posts, if I have offended anyone it's not on purpose, seriously. I may seem like an ignorant stubborn person and maybe I am but thanks for everything. I've learned a lot.

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Fintan (neta.lisp.com.au - 203.21.133.124)
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chailín, a chara,

Tá fáilte romhat... you sound like quite a nice young woman. We all ALWAYS have a lot to learn from each other at all times. I've learned a few things from you and the other participants in this conversation, that's how the world works in an ideal situation. *grin* Feel free to mail me anytime.

And to all concerned:

I cannot take credit for the "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination" credo.... thank Gene 'Star Trek' Roddenberry for it. I.D.I.C. was, apparently, a fundamental philosophical tenet of the Vulcans. (SEE? You CAN learn all kinds of interestingly useful things via Star Trek). Despite it's sci-fi origins, I think it makes a pretty nifty personal motto.

Excelsior!
Creag ' Fintan' Batty

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Seosamh (1cust19.tnt52.nyc3.da.uu.net - 67.193.94.19)
Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, a Chara.

Anois, lean comhairle an tSeosaimh eile agus déan do sheacht ndícheall leis an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim i gceart (agus glacfaidh mise mo chomhairle féin fosta). As you get psyched up please take one piece of advice from me: language learning is overlearning.

Agus ná bí buartha as a bheith dígeanta. Don't worry about being stubborn.

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tis_herself (202.129.95.21)
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 02:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Fintan
Are you in Australia??...if so where ??

Ba mhaith liom uisce beatha ???

An dtagann tú anseo go minic ?
Slan
Meself

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Fintan (neta.lisp.com.au - 203.21.133.124)
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A 'Sí Féin'(Herself?),
Tá mé i mo chonaí ina Sléibhte Gorma san Astráil. Agus tú féin?
Is breá liom 'fuisce', ceart go leor...*gáire*

Mise le meas,
Fintan

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tis_herself (202.129.95.21)
Posted on Monday, January 07, 2002 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Fintan
Tá mé i mo chonai ina Lidcombe.
Is maith liom Bushmills *caochadh*

slán go fóill
Tis_herself

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violet (65.90.61.14)
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 02:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I had wondered what topic could have generated so many messages....

As a Native American/Irish/German/ad infinitum Mutt, I find the diversity of cultures that make up my background give me opportunities to expand and explore my world. And, with the advent of the Internet, such exploration is a mere click away.

Further, as an author - or I should say aspiring author - I have found the Celtic traditions and Gaelig language to be fascinating, and have made them a focal point for my novel. If...no, no....WHEN it is published, the Irish will have much to be proud of.

In America, diversity is the very soul of our collective being. I can name many people who are mutts like me, yet who are fiercely proud of any one of their claimed ethnicities.

Violet

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Liam O Briain (213.86.33.74)
Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Fintan, An bhfuil tu id'chónaí i ngar do Katoomba? An bhfuil do theach slán sábháilte?

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Seosaimhín Nic Rabhartaigh (adsl-64-109-203-42.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net - 64.109.203.42)
Posted on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Caithfidh mé a rá go raibh ionadh orm nuair a thosaigh mé ag léamh an sliocht seo teachtaireachtaí ón chéad nóta a scríobh Cailín anúas go dtí an ceann deireannach. Bhí sé suimiúil a tuairaimí agus níos maille tuairaimí Choilm a léamh. Is daoine óga iad nách bhfuil morán taisteal déanta acu go dtí seo. Is iontach an dóigh a athraíonn daoine a gcuid tuairaimí nuair atá roinnt ama caite acu i dTíortha eile. Tá mé féin líofa sa Spáinnis agus san Ollanais. Cad chuige? Mar go raibh orm na teanngacha seo a fhoghlaim agus mé i mo chónaí sa Spáinn agus sna hIsealtíre.
Mar a dúirt mo Mhóraí ( mo mháthair mhór) " Níl ach dóigh amháin ann chun teanga a fhóghlaim i gceart.Caithfidh tú í a labhairt!" Mar sin, a Chailín agus a Choilm, déanaigí bhur ndícheall agus bígí ag labhairt! Ní feidir le duine rud nach bfhuil aige/aicí a chailleadh ach is féidir leis/léi faill nó deis a chailleadh!
Agus mé i mo chónaí sna hIsealtíre, bhí ionadh orm ar an dóigh a raibheadar uilig abálta trí nó ceithre teangacha a labhairt go líofa. Dúradh liom na mílte uaire sna hIsealtíre( agus chaith mé ceithre bliain go leith ann) nách bhfuil duine cliste i súile an phobail go dtí go bhfuil sé líofa i cúig teangacha. Cúig!!!! Smaoinigí ar sin bomaide!
Agus rud eile a thug mé faidear, bhí na hEireannaigh ar fad lena bhuail mé ansin abálta Ollanais a labhairt agus ní raibh fiú an Meánteist déanta ag cuid mhaith acu! Bhíodar cliste go leor chun an Ollanais a fhóghlaim ach ní raibh duine ar bith acu Gaeilge a labhairt.

Agus mé i mo chónaí i dTíortha eile, thosaigh mé ag smaoineamh go domhain ar an cheist " Cad is Eireannach ann?" Mhothaigh mé níos Gaelach le achán bhliain a chaith mé thar sáile.( D'fhág mé i 1989 nuair a bhí mé críochnaithe leis an Ollscoil agus nuair nach raibh postanna ar bith le fáil in Eirinn. Ní raibh agam ach fíche bliana d'aois.) Leán mé ag labhairt i nGaeilge le mo thuismitheoirí ar an guthán agus le daoine ag a raibh Gaeilge nuair a bhuail mé leo. Cheannaigh mé alán ceol Gaelach agus leán mé ag fóghlaim amhráin i nGaeilge mar is aoibhinn liom canadh. Ní raibh morán faill agam na hamhráin a chanadh go poiblí ach ba chuma liom. Cheannaigh mé fidil agus thosaigh mé ag fóghlaim an uirlis sin. Shíl mé go raibh mé ag coinneáil greim ar mo chroí, ar m'anam agus ar m'ainm agus na caitheamh aimsire seo idir láimhe agam.

Tá céim bainte amach agam sa Ghaeilge, agus, ná bí buartha Seosamh Mac Muirí! Bhéadh mise sásta mo theaghlach a thógáil trínár dteanga féin cé go bhfuil mé i mo chónaí anois i Milwaukee, USA.Tá mise ag teagasc rang Gaeilge achán seachtain chun an teanga is deise sa domhain a roinnt le daoine ag a bhfuil suim acu intí.
Tháinig mé go dtí an tír seo i mí Aibreán agus bhí mé páirteach i dhá deireadh seachtaine Gaelacha sa Stáit seo( Wisconsin).
Bhí na daltaí uilig chomh suimiúil sin mar dhaoine agus chomh dílis agus iad ag iarraidh an teanga a fhóghlaim gur mhothaigh mé umhalchroíoch. Bhí náire orm agus mé ag smaoineamh ar na hEireannaigh uilig ( na fíor Eireannaigh a rugadh is a tógadh ann) nach bhfuil fonn orthú dhá fhocail a chur le chéile. Agus sin an rud atá i gceist, i ndeireadh na dála. Muna bhfuil fonn fóghlamtha ar dhuine ní fiú é rud ar bith a mhúineadh dhó.
Agus mé i mo chónaí sna hIsealtíre chaith mé ceithre bliana ag múineadh i Scoil Idirnáisiúnta sa Bheilg. Bhí mé ag teagasc "First Grade" trí mheán an Bhéarla. Bhí níos lú ná trian dén rang aonteangach ( sa Bhéarla). Bhí sé iontach coitianta leanaí a raibh líofa i níos mó ná dhá teanga a bheith sa rang.
Béarla a bhí mar "lingua franca" agus 'language of instruction" againn sa scoil ach bhí cuid mhaith de na paistí ar a mbealach don "polyglotism".
Tháinig trian dén rang isteach i mo sheomra gach Lúnasa gan Béarla ar bith acu. Agus iad i measc paistí eile ag a raibh Béarla líofa acu agus leis an múunteoir ag labhairt amháin i mBéarla, bhí na leanaí sin ag labhairt in abairtí simplí ag deireadh Deireadh Fómhair agus bhí siad líofa i mí Márta. Ní raibh acu ach cúig nó sé bliana d'aois agus bhí cuid mhaith acu líofa i dhá nó trí teangacha eile. D'fhoghlaim siad an teanga Béarla chomh gasta sin mar bhí fonn acu agus bhí a dtuismitheoirí ag tabhairt tacaíocht dóibh.( Dúirt Cailín nach bhfuil maitheas ar bith ins na módhanna múinteoireachta a úsáidtear agus an teanga Gaeilge a theagasc i scoileanna in Eirinn ach b'fheidir nach bhfuil morán tacaíocht a fháil sa bhaile ag na daltaí.) Tá "That Ould Irish, what would you want to learn that for?" cloiste agam níos mó ná uair amháin, agus is maith is cuimhin liom na mílte daoine a thosaigh ag gáire agus mé i mo mhacléinn nuair a d'inis mé dóibh go raibh mé ag staidear Sean agus Nua Ghaeilge. Bfheidir go raibh siad dímhúinte ach cinnte go raibh siad aineolach!

Dá mbéadh buntaistí an dátheangachas ó thaobh fásadh an intleacht de ar eolas go forleathan in Eirinn bhéadh i bhfad níos mó daoine ag bualadh ar doirse Dáil Eireann ag iarraidh go gcuirtear Gaelscoileanna dá gcuid leanaí agus ranganna Gaeilge do dhaoine fásta ar fáil in achán áit!
An Samhradh seo chaite, chaith mé féin agus dearthair liom a tá ina chónaí i "New Jersey" cúpla oíche i B.&B. i Baile Dhún na nGall. Ag am bricfeasta bhí muid ag labhairt idireadrainn i nGaeilge. Tharla go raibh bean ina suí léi féin ag tábla eile. D'éist sí linn ar féadh tamaill. Labhair sí i mBéarla briste le bean an tí. Thiontaigh sí thart tar eis cúpla bomaide agus d'iarr sí orainn ( i nGaeilge) an raibh cead aicí suí in aice linn agus Gaeilge a labhairt linn. D'úirt muid cinnte agus fáilte.Chaith muid dhá uair a chloig ag labhairt léi an chéad lá agus an t-am céanna an dara lá. Bhí sí i ndiaidh trí seachtain a chaitheamh i nGleann Choilm Cille ag fóghlaim Gaeilge. Bhí sí iontach líofa. Bhí sí ag staidear Gaeilge ar féadh trí bliana. Is as an Eilvéis a tháinig sí. Bhí sí líofa i Fraincis, Iodáilis agus Gearmainis. Bhí sí chor a bheith líofa i nGaeilge. Bhí sí níos líofa agus í ag labhairt i nGaeilge ná i mBéarla.
Duine lách cneasta a bhí intí. Dá mba rud é nach raibheamar ag caint i nGaeilge, b'fheidir nach labhródh sí linn.( Psychiatrist a bhí intí. Deirtear gur is maith an rud é teangacha eile a fhóghlaim agus uirlisí nua cheoil a sheinm achán cúig bhliain i ndiaidh 25 chun Galair Alzheimer's a sheachaint. Ar sin, bígí ag labhairt! Agus ná stadaigí leis an Ghaeilge mar chun ár dteanga aoibhinn féin a mheasú go cóir, caithfidh sibh cur amach a bheith agaibh ar teangacha eile!

Bhuel, tá mo chuid ráite agam anocht. Is téama iontach suimiúil é seo agus is dóiche go mbeidh níos mó a rá ag daoine eile.

Slán agus beannacht
Seosaí

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (proxy-server3.ul.ie - 136.201.1.52)
Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2002 - 07:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní raibh mé buartha fútsa ar chor ar bith, a Sheosaimhín, ná faoin dream atá cosúil leat, thall is abhus. Tá slua níos líonmhaire aníos inniu a bhfuil de léirstean iontu coimhéad amach dá ndúchas agus do na glúnta a leanfas iad.

Treise leat thall! Nár lagaí Dia sibh!

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Tracey (oak.may.ie - 149.157.1.55)
Posted on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 07:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Fair play duit, a chailin,
Nil a fhios agam an ndearna tu tri thimpiste e no d'aon turas ach d'eirigh leat an-dhiospooireacht go deo a ardu. Thainig daoine amach go laidir ar son do theangsa, mo theangsa agus teanga gach duine a bhfuil suim aige/aici inti. Feicimid on meid seo thuas go bhfuil fuinneamh agus faobhar ag daoine ar fud an domhain faoin nGaeilge - rud nach raibh le feiscint ar feadh na mblianta. Ta agus beidh an Ghaeilge bheo chomh fada agus ata ar leitheidi sasta seasamh amach ar son ar gcuiseanna.
Beir bua,
Tracey
(Ta bron orm faoin easpa sinti fada ach is leir nach bhfuil an coras s'agamsa sasta glacadh leo)

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Cáilín (1cust164.tnt1.dub2.ie.uudial.net - 213.116.40.164)
Posted on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Me again. I just have a question. When you're learning Irish, what dialect do you generally use? Because to me, there are 2 major differences; the Conamara Irish I learn and the Ulster Irish I sometimes hear. Example:
How are you? In Conamara Irish it's:
"Conas atá tú?"
In Ulster Irish it's:
"Cád é mar atá tú?"
To me there's a huge difference in the language and in the pronounciation. Also, the Ulster Irish speakers sometimes use different verbs to Connamara Irish. I was also wondering, are the people who teach you of Irish nationality? If not, how do you differ between the dialects?

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Tracey (oak.may.ie - 149.157.1.55)
Posted on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 12:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, cailin, don't forget canuint na Mumhan (Munster) - conas taoi!! Not only in Ulster do they use different verbs but also in Munster - one widely used in Munster would be 'dhein' (the aimsir chaite of the verb 'dean' - 'i didnt do it' - nior dheineas/nior dhein me e'!

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Seosamh (1cust11.tnt52.nyc3.da.uu.net - 67.193.94.11)
Posted on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 03:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Let's start a new thread, a chairde. Téad nua. It's starting to take a lot of time to download this one.

But a quick comment to Cailín: You can become fluent while sticking to Standard Irish or the related kinds that fluent people in Dublin, etc. often speak. But I would say choose the dialect of the place where you want to settle or visit. I have a feeling that that's Conamara.

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Sandy Crabtree (spider-wg053.proxy.aol.com - 205.188.196.43)
Posted on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I only recently found this site by accident & I have the posts on this subject to be interesting and sometimes sad. I am an American. My ancestors came from MANY different lands, so far we have found Irish, Cherokee, Blackfoot, English, German and Spanish Jews in the family trees. If all of my ancestors were brought in one place they might have even come to blows (stange thought). I have no desire to "steal" anyone's culture or language. I do think it is important to learn other languages and cultural contexts because this is how we communicate with one another. I do see "bastardization" of many cultures in America -- sometimes by people with good intentions & bad research, other times by people who don't care bacause they are trying to impress someone or make money off of them. That said, isn't it more insulting for people to have no regard for other countries language and culture by ignoring them altogether (e.g. Americans who make no effort to learn the language of the country they visit), than to have people who are not of a particular country attempting to learn?? On a side note: Americans don't really speak English, we speak an Americanized version of English, which is why there were English words I no clue of what they meant when I went to England. Luckily I had a wonderful lady explain unfamiliar terms, we had many moments of hilarity. I am very interested in learning Irish, I know only two phrases but I hope to continue to add to my meager knowledge. My particular interest is in 13th & 14th century Irish culture and history, but I think the best way to learn is from primary sources, so I have long road ahead of me. Sorry if I rambled.

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Ursula Forhan (k2a162-243.k2access.net - 209.170.162.243)
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm brand new to this site. However, having lived near the Hupa Reservation in northern California, I have this tidbit to contribute. The Hupa were great basketmakers, but the art was being lost because the youngsters weren't learning it. The elder women of the tribe made the decision to teach ANYONE willing to learn, rather than have the heritage lost.

Ursula Forhan

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DZdal2 (12.21.30.4)
Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"The world would be a boring place if we shared all our cultures."

Oh! On the contrary. I think Ireland, its people, its culture...everything is fascinating and beautiful. And I think that beautiful and fascinating things should be shared for the good of everyone. There is already too much ugliness and negativity in the world.

Reese.

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dvk (t-group.skbkontur.ru - 195.58.16.195)
Posted on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 08:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

you think you are the only irish in the world, invented the language and done the culture.

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Sinéad (213.145.168.234 - 213.145.168.234)
Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

your not the only one thats irish here you know. I get what you'r saying, but its only nice that people have a interest in our language and culture! I have a lot of friends that isn't from Ireland and they don't think they'r irish, but they have much more interest in Ireland, Irish and the Irish culture then many people in Ireland. Let people enjoy our culture too! They'r not trying to take our culture or anything. It's also up to us (Irish people) to look after or culture so other people don't take it!

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Tadhg MacEoghain (207.81.10.203 - 207.81.10.203)
Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 02:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

a chailin,
a person who truly loves his/her own culture, would feel nothing but joy and exitement at the idea of outsiders exposing themselves to it.
le meas,
tadhg

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Jonas (213.243.190.8 - 213.243.190.8)
Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I agree with what you said, Tadhg. However, this discussion was conducted two years ago, cailín has not been seen here for at least a year. I suggest we let the discussion (which I thought strange already back then) rest in peace.

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jessica ní chonchubhair (194.165.167.163 - 194.165.167.163)
Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

leigh me an cuid is mo de seo, taim comh feargach nil se fiu greanmhar.

nil colm agus cailin ach doaine oige lena smaointe meascaithe suas. ta siad a iarriadh a dicheall a deanamh agus glacadh phairt san gaelilge agus an "cultur" a cheapann siad go bhfuil ann.

deirann go bhfuil colm og freisin, agus cailin ag 17 mbliain d'aois. nil an taithi acu chun an tuiscint ceart faoin gaeilge 7rl.

mar daoine foghlaimithe le gaeilge liofa ba choir dun ar ndicheall a dheanamh chun a shuile a oscailt. deirann fein go bhfuil an fadhb gantanas eolas.

gaois na haoise baoise na hoige?

i read the majority of this, and im so angry its not funny.

colm and cailin seem young, and confused. confused about what it means to speak irish and the culture that they THINK exsist.

as speakers of the language, we should open their eyes to their own ignorance, rather than put down on them, its a lack of knowledge thats the problem.

old views new views?

sorry i didnt have enough time to use fadas and oh my god i just read the last post. hahahahahahahahahaha

im 17, and im not that ignorant, there is hope....

go neiri an bothar....

hahaha

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Más óg féin thú a Jessica is smaointeach go deimhin.

Tá céad míle fáilte romhat isteach i measc na ndaoine. Is maith liom duine óg mar thú a fheiceáil le Gaeilge.

Fan linn, le do thoil agus gura fada buan thú ag Gaeilgeoireacht inár measc.

Seosamh

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jessica ní chonchubhair (194.165.171.59 - 194.165.171.59)
Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

GO raibh maith agut.

tá se deas chun fáilte comh deise a fháil.

jessica

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Cáilín (213.202.165.137 - 213.202.165.137)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 04:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Oh my God! I can't believe this discussion is still here! I'm 19 now and in university, studying Psychology, Sociology and Nua-Ghaeilge (modern Irish).
I got a B2 in Irish in the Leaving Cert, which I was happy enough with.
I'm learning more and more about Irish and Irish culture. It's my favourite subject out of the three I'm doing. I find some of the Irish grammar hard, like the Tuiseal Ginideach Iolra, for some reason.
I've grown up a good bit. There's so many cultures in college, its great!
However, my point (2 years ago!) wasn't that I didn't want to share Irish culture. It was that I was afraid all cultures would become mixed up and integrated in the future which I still think will probably happen. But I think that's great and it's important (and interesting) to learn about other ways of life. I'd love to learn more about Germany and Spain. But first, I've to learn about Irish.

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Cáilín (213.202.165.137 - 213.202.165.137)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Weird! I just realised that it's been EXACTLY 2 years since I wrote the first message. How strange!!!
Anyway, feel free to comment some more!!!

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

'Sé do bheatha ar ais chugainn a chailín. Is dóigh go mbeidh go leor le rá ag daoine éagsúla arís ar ábhar na ceiste céanna.

Go maire tú dea-scéala na hardteiste. Is maith a chruthaigh tú ann.

An scéala is aoibhne liom, gur leis an nGaeilge a chuaigh tú sa deireadh agus gur maith leat í thar na hábhair eile.

Is maith go bhfuil tú linn. Go mbainir sult as an teanga choíche feasta.

'Sé do bheatha.

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Paul Brady (64.252.171.211 - 64.252.171.211)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

This has been a great discussion. Many people have made points that made me think about culture and language in general and my attitudes in particular.

In looking over these posts, I can't help remembering that languages are living things (unless they are destroyed or let die). Like all living things, they grow and change and propogate.

In the short term, the spread of Irish to other nations is a wonderful gift to people all over the world. A gift that can only enrich the giver as well as the recipient. If you teach me Irish, you haven't lost anything; you've gained someone to talk with.

In the long term, I hope Irish will grow in the number of speakers but also in the depth of its beauty through new authors, musicians, playwrights, storytellers and others.

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Jessica Ní Chonchúbhair (213.202.166.70 - 213.202.166.70)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Wow! Fáilte arais!

I think that progression is inevitable and it should be welcomed. If we have open hearts and open eyes, we should be able to share culturs without losing our own heritage/language. Sharing or mixing of culturs, whatever you want to call it, should be thought of as growth!

Out of interest, what college are you in?

Slán

Jessica

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Dan (205.156.184.254 - 205.156.184.254)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Can't we just let this one go?

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An Fear Cantalach (68.167.57.155 - 68.167.57.155)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 06:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Amen.

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Luke (24.130.61.84 - 24.130.61.84)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 03:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Wow. I read this, and I began to weep. A full grown man, weeping.

Why? Because I was told that I have no right to claim my ancestry. I spent a lifetime in America not understanding my family, or where we came from, ro what was special about us. Then I delved in, and discovered all that was wonderful about being Irish, about knowing where you come from and how it feels to know there are others like you somewhere. And it was very pleasing. And fufilling.

But I am apparently not welcome.

I have no delusions about my irish ancestry. I do not buy all the Lucky Charms, dancing a jig, made for TV movie garbage about the Irish that american TV puts forth. I know about OUR past, and I hope to one day go there, and live, and be bale to fully understand what it is like, and what it means. Would living in your county make me Irish enough to be interested?

You scapegoat Americans with belittling or misunderstanding what it means to be Irish; Then you make a blanket misunderstanding about America. I do not shoot people, i am not a cowboy. I live in California, but I do not surf. You are, in your narrow view, subscribing to all of the misinterpreted garbage about our country that goes through the TV.

My family left Ireland to come here, and now I am being told that for them to survive, they came here, and therefore I must cease to claim my ancestry. That I have no claim because I have not been there.

That is unfair, and disheartening. I live in a land where one must assert their own identity, know where they come from, and proclaim it loudly. Otherwise you are deemed unworthy of attention for your people's special gifts to the world.

I am sorry if I seem emotional, but if you knew what it was like to truly search for yourself,and your background, and be lucky enough to find it, to embrace it, and to pursue it, and then be told that you had no right, you would feel this too.

It hurts to think that I have escaped years of ignorance on my own behalf, and ignorance from thsoe around me, about my culture, and to find out that I now am unwelcome.

I am sorry. I am Irish. You cannot deny me that. I am learning everyday what it means,and I am very proud. I just hope you can see that it is something we can all be, and share, and that you could extend a hand and teach me and help me. And then we could work together to defeat the foolishness of those who would stereotype US, and to be able to find a bond in our common ancestry.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 04:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chailín.
I think your basic thesis that sharing cultures somehow diminishes them is flawed.

Cultures meeting together enhance both when they are genuine cultures, and fostered by people who love them.

People in far flung places taking the trouble to learn Irish, or Czech, or whatever is more likely to help those cultures survive than otherwise.

Don't forget that the revival of Irish literature is in a huge measure due to people whose culture it was not:
Julius Pokorny (German)
Kuno Meyer (German)
Carl Mastrander (Norwegian, I think)
Robin Flower (An Englishman)
and so on...

For example: Without Robin Flower, an tÓiléanach would never have been written, and Irish culture would be very much the poorer for it.

And even in the early 8th Century, say, Irish profited from the Greek Latin, and Hebrew learning of it's scholars.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 05:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Altaimis an abairt seo uaithi féin ar an gceist sin a Aonghuis:

But I think that's great and it's important (and interesting) to learn about other ways of life.

An méid a scríobh sí roimhe, is san aimsir chaite a fheicfidh tú an briathar aici:

wasn't .... didn't ..... It was ... was afraid ..... would .....integrated ..... still think will probably happen. But I think that's great .....


Is fíor duit a Aonghuis gurbh ábhar misnigh thar na bearta na scoláirí seo go léir chucu agus Johann Caspar Zeuss an réadóir thar dhuine ar bith eile, ach braithim go ndéantar leathcheal go minic ar Bhrian Ó Ceallaigh mar gur bhásaigh sé go hóg. Féach lch. ix in Allagar na hInse ach go háirithe agus féach leis an sliocht seo anuas as suíomh Mhaigh Nuat:

Ba i gcomhthéacs seo na scoláireachta a thathain béaloideasóirí ar scríbhneoirí an Bhlascaoid Mhóir a ghabháil i mbun scéalta a mbeatha a scríobh (Nic Eoin 1982: 35, Ó Dúshláine 1974: 56).

Ba í Máire Ní Chinnéide a ghríosaigh Peig Sayers chun oibre (Sayers 1936, Nic Eoin 1982: 36).
An scoláire clasaicí ó Shasana, George Thomson, a thathain ar Mhuiris Ó Súilleabháin (Ó Súilleabháin 1933) Fiche Blian ag Fás a scríobh. Ach anuas ar thacaíocht na mbéaloideasóirí bhí sampla Thomáis Uí Chriomhthain le leanacht acu a threabh páirc na dírbheathaisnéise rompu i 1929 nuair a foilsíodh An tOileánach (Ó Criomhthain 1929).

Ba é Brian Ó Ceallaigh a chéadspreag Ó Criomhthain le gabháil i mbun pinn (Greene 1972: 33-4). http://www.may.ie/academic/anthropology/AAI/IJA/vol2/giollagain.html


Agus roinnt eile mar é:
http://www.pgil-eirdata.org/html/pgil_datasets/authors/o/OCriomthain,T/life.htm


http://www.rte.ie/culture/millennia/people/ocriomthainntomas.html

http://www.woe.edu.pl/1999/1_99/literat.html


Altaimis an bhean óg a shiúil uainn san iargúil seal agus d'fhill orainn ar nós mhac an drabhláis.
Sceanaimis an lao biata di!

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 06:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní raibh sé i gceist agam neamhaird a dhéanamh ar Éireannaigh; chun an phointe a dhéanamh lúas iad siúd nach raibh baint díreach acú le hÉireann.

Agus nárbh é Blaithín a sheol an Ceallach siar?

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 08:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tuigim duit as an slua chugainn a lua le mórtas agus is mór an chomaoin a d'fhágadar orainn go deimhin, ach déarfainn gur ag cuimhneamh ar oilitreacht Sheoirse Mhic Thomáis atánn tú ' Aonghuis. Ba ar chomhairle a tharraing seisean isteach chucu. Sílim gur Marstrander a mhol dó aghaidh a thabhairt isteach (a deirim gan foinse chuige lem' thaobh!).
An Seabhac a mhol do Bhrian Ó Ceallaigh aghaidh a thabhairt ar an oileán chun a chuid Gaeilge a fhoghlaim. Máthair an Cheallaigh a bhí tar éis comhairle a iarraidh ar an Seabhac. (Ó Coileáin, Seán, 1979, 234 & Scríobh 4). Bhí an Ceallach ag íoc triúir as dialanna a scríobh dó sa bhliain 1923, de réir Nollaig Mhic Congail: Tomás (Allagar na hI.1928), Eibhlín Ní Shúilleabháin (a foilsíodh don chéad uair 2000!). agus Mícheál Ó Gaoithín. Bhí 'eolas maith ar theangacha eile' ag Brian sular thosaigh sé ar an nGaeilge, de réir an tSeabhaic. B'ionadh leis an Seabhac a thapúla a fuair an Ceallach greim ar an nGaeilge (Ó Coileáin).
Fear a rinne a chion.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 08:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is dóigh liom fhéin go bhfuil an ceart agat. Chuas ar tóir foinse ar líne, ach theip ar mo stracfhéachaint.

Sé an gcaoi go gcuireann caint ar "fíor Ghaelachas/Éireannachas" an-imní orm, go hairithe agus breis imircigh de shaghas amháin nó do shaghas eile ag triall ar ár dtírín dúchais.

Táim goillúnach faoi seo, ós rud é gur chaitheas fhéin seal sách fada thar lear, agus go bhfuilim pósta ar eachtrannach. Go deimhin, tá "nazi" glaoite ar mo leanaí ag gramaisc na sráide uair nó dhó cheana fhéin. Is deacair an saol a bhíos ag na daoine breaca go fóill; cé, dá mbeimís ionraic, is daoine breaca muid uilig.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Aontaím leat a Aonghuis gur cheart don phobal a bheith san airdeall ar an gciníochas. Is galar sách láidir in Éirinn é chomh maith le háiteanna eile. Is féidir é a bheith i measc na hóige ró-éasca le héiginnteacht ghinearálta saoil a bhraithid siúd ina dtimpeall. Maslaíodh cairde liom féin nuair nach raibh mé féin thart in éineacht leo.

An rud ba mhaith liom a fheiceáil ar an teilifís, duine gorm nó daite ag meangadh agus ag caint leis an gceamara i nGaeilge bhinn. Ba cheart go bhfeicfeadh muintir na hÉireann fógra den chineál sin cúpla uair sa mhí/choicís. Dhéanfadh sé leas na Gaeilge agus leas na n-inimirceach ag an am céanna. (Tá a fhios agam roinnt daoine den chine gorm a bhfuil togha na Gaeilge acu, cé nár casadh dom iad le tamall de bhlianta.)

Maidir le breac, maímse féin an duibhe liom féin, d'ainneoin blaisín na léithe a bheith ag bagairt orm le blianta. Is fear dubh fós mé.
Is oth liom do scéala a chlos mar leis na gasúir a bheith ag fulaingt na drochíde sin.
Nára fada uainn an lá nach dtarlóidh a leithéid ar shráideanna/clósanna scoile na hÉireann.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>>An rud ba mhaith liom a fheiceáil ar an teilifís, duine gorm nó daite ag meangadh agus ag caint leis an gceamara i nGaeilge bhinn

A bhfacaís Ros na Rún le deanaí? Tá an fear breá san Seamus (ní cuimhin liom a shloinne, mac altrama le Donáll Ó Lubhlaí) a glacadh páirt ann.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 12:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní fhaca a Aonghuis. Is maith liom do scéala.

Is cosúil ar do thuairisc go bhfuil ball ceart amháin ar an saol ar aon chuma.

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Cáilín (194.125.41.118 - 194.125.41.118)
Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I hope Aonghus and Luke have misinterpreted what I wrote.
Luke: well, your interpretations were right but my opinion has since changed so it doesn't really apply. And I never said you weren't welcome here. No-one said that. You are welcome here. Anyone with an interest in Irish is welcome here. Don't take to heart other people's comments.
Aonghus: What I meant about that, is that if cultures mix together, languages, customs etc, it changes the cultures and blurs the lines. That said, I'm not against it!
And to Dan and an fear cantalach: I like this discussion! I honestly think it's really interesting!
Bye!
PS: Maybe one day I'll write here in Irish!!!

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Jonas (213.243.190.23 - 213.243.190.23)
Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 04:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

May I just comment that the Irish language is itself a result of languages and cultures mixing. Irish is of course an Indo-European languages while it is widely accepted that its phonology is heavily influenced by the language(s) spoken in Ireland prior to the coming of the Celts. Both Old Norse, Norman and English have had an impact on the language.

In other, less scientific words, the Irish language, as pure as you can find it, is the result of at least five languages "mixing and bluring". If you can find a single language, or a single culture, that isn't the result of many different languages and cultures mixing I would be very interested in hearing it. I can guarantee that you won't a single example in Europe.

So even though I understand your concern, mixing is something that has occured for many thousands of years and we can hardly change it. ;-)

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Scríobh Cailín:

Bye!
PS: Maybe one day I'll write here in Irish!!!


Bheadh sé sin go deas dúinn go léir.

Cén fáth fanacht a thuilleadh?

Is cairde go brách an cairde go lá! -
Putting on the back burner for a day is putting off good.

Maith an cailín - is leor aon líne amháin dúinn!

Bíonn blas ar an mbeagán.


Seosamh

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Cailín (194.165.165.9 - 194.165.165.9)
Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi! I don't want to write in Irish cos I ain;t so good at it! I think this would be the worst place for me to show off my "skills" of language!!! A lot of people here speak it fluently!

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Luke (24.130.61.84 - 24.130.61.84)
Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 03:32 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cáilín:
I apoligize if my earlier post was a little emotional. After a careful re-reading of all posts I was a little ashamed of my little *outburst* and would like to extend an apology, as I WAS addressing a no longer relevant point of view. I am overwhelemed with happiness that you have changed and feel this way now. I was almost getting a little scared people over there wouldn't want me coming around.
Thank you for your words

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 05:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is fear maith thú a Luke. Mar a deir an seanfhocal, 'níor mhill an dea-fhocal fiacail duine riamh' /a kind word goes a long way/ agus thug tú sin. Comhartha an fhir mhaith.

A Chailín,
Is fearr an Ghaeilge bhriste ná an Béarla cliste, mar is eol duit cheana, déarfainn. Ní halla scrúdaithe an áit seo, tá a fhios agat. Nár dheas an rud an iarracht bheag a dhéanamh? Is leor a bheith leathchruinn agus leathmhíchruinn!
Ba mhór againn an méid sin (we would think highly of it). B'fhéidir gurbh é inniu féin an lá a scríobhfaidh tú cúpla focal Gaeilge ar shuíomh na nDaltaí?!
Seosamh

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 07:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Scríobh cailín:
"Aonghus: What I meant about that, is that if cultures mix together, languages, customs etc, it changes the cultures and blurs the lines"

What I was responding to is the idea that there are lines to be blurred: I don't think there are, and I think imposing them is dangerous, because it has the effect of (in my view arbitrarily) excluding people.

I think cultures overlap a lot; and that once artefacts of a culture are kept in as close a form to the original as is possible, given the shift in the meaning of language over time, then contact between cultures has the capacity to enrich both cultures.

I'm sorry I missed the point in your recent posting that you had changed your mind: I thought your standpoint was still that "blurring the lines " was a bad thing.

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Sherri (129.120.235.158 - 129.120.235.158)
Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Wow! I stumbled upon this website while looking for materials to help me learn the Irish language. Let me just say that if i ever visit Ireland (which is one of my greatest wishes), i will be using my German skills to try to pass myself off as a German tourist!

I am from Texas, and i already have a good understanding of stereotypes. I cannot visit my father's side of the family in Ohio without recieving a few strange looks... apparently, the southern american accent does not inspire much intellectual confidence. I have red hair, so people automatically assume that i am a full-blooded Irish person, can drink anyone else under the table, and believe in "the wee folk". I was pretty astonished to find out that there is yet another stereotype i must deal with - the dumb American tourist. Let me just say that Americans are not the only ignorant people out there: a friend of mine went to Germany and someone asked her how many horses she had and why she wasn't wearing a cowboy hat! LOL!!! I know that there will always be people that buy into stereotypes (be they Irish or American or whatever), but i encourage everyone to be open minded about the good intensions and curiosity of others.

Oh! one more thing... if anyone out there knows about scientific research opportunities in Ireland for students I would be most appreciative! Y'all take care now ;)
Sherri

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Sherri (129.120.235.158 - 129.120.235.158)
Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

LOL! i just realized that my post was an answer to several discussions i have read and at this point would have little or no relevance to this conversation. Sorry. Now who's the dumb American teenager! LOL.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 06:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

You're alright Sherri. Certainly not 'dumb'. A seanfhocal (proverb) that comes in handy for all of us at one time or another is:

Níl saoi gan locht. (There's no philosopher without a fault)

And similarly:

Ní bhíonn rith maith ag an each i gcónaí. (The steed doesn't always have a good run.)

Ádh mór - good luck.

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Cailín (149.157.1.122 - 149.157.1.122)
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Luke: I hope you come to ireland, I'm sure they'll welcome ya!

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William Donegan (67.32.63.130 - 67.32.63.130)
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 04:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chailin,

Interesting discussion. Please know I sympathize with your point of view as an American.

But, you know, this phenomenon of only the pure bred getting to claim the proper status shows up in religion, too. Many Catholics argue over the proper ways to conduct the Mass, Latin vs. vernacular, priest facing front vs. back as infinitum, ad nauseum. There's also an expression "high" Brahmin.

Will

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Éanna Mac Dúghlais (159.134.181.141 - 159.134.181.141)
Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Laids,
I would like to drawn your attention to the fact that this thread was started on:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 05:54 pm:

over 2 years and 18 days ago!

Fágigí í ina huaigh le do thoil. Ar aon chor, cén fáth nach bhfuil sí i na Archives?

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Duine (217.155.45.123 - 217.155.45.123)
Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aontáim leat. Tá sé thar am é dhúnadh go deo.

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eileenmary (24.96.21.102 - 24.96.21.102)
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 01:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Who cares when this thread started...it is one of the most interesting discussions I've ever seen on a bulliten board...Not to mention it's still a relevent topic of conversation.

Cáilín,
I wondered, as I was reading your original posts and the responses you received, how you would feel about the topics now...I have to say I was shocked to see you post again two years later! Thanks for the update!


As to the topic: I first began learning Gaeilge at UCC in Cork while studing abroad and I also happen to have Irish ancestry - does that make me Irish, no. I do however, love the language and culture. This fact doesn't alter the way anyone in Ireland lives or speaks on a day-to-day basis. I doubt I'm blurring anyone's "lines".

While living in Ireland I was always astonished by the misconceptions my four Irish roomates had about American culture. They assumed I was in a college sorority (i wasn't), that since I was from Florida I was close personal friends with Mickey Mouse and lived on the beach, and that I would probably die from eating all of the terribly disgusting peanut butter I kept insisting my family send me :).

I asked them questions and held perceptions that were equally naive. We learned a lot from each other and the point I'm trying to make is: Neither side was diminished in any way by this exchange of information. They are no less Irish, I'm no more Irish but we grew closer to understanding each other.

-eileen

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Will (67.32.63.130 - 67.32.63.130)
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hello All,

But isn't there something to cailin's original point?? That Americans of Irish descent aren't really Irish?? But neither do I really feel American. I remember being taught both at home and in Catholic grammar school in NYC in the 1950's that to be Irish and Catholic in America was to be a second class citizen and you'd better remember that.

The reason that this is important now is because with globalization, Americanism is forcibly imposed upon all the world. So, I ask, as an adult, is this really me??

And couldn't it be time again for the Irish to save civilization??

Will

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Marcia (66.156.225.4 - 66.156.225.4)
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Here's an interesting tidbit (feel free to look this up since I'm condensing it): Before the Irish were Irish, they were Borlogs, Tuatha de Dannan and Celts-Milesians(the Celts were famous for recruiting and welcoming like-minded people to their tribe/s).

Note to Will: "But isn't there something to cailin's original point?? That Americans of Irish descent aren't really Irish?? But neither do I really feel American. I remember being taught both at home and in Catholic grammar school in NYC in the 1950's that to be Irish and Catholic in America was to be a second class citizen and you'd better remember that."

As an immigrant in the 60's, I was taught(Catholic and public schools) that through hard work and respect for laws that I would fulfill my full potential. That the American Dream exists and can be achieved.

As for: "The reason that this is important now is because with globalization, Americanism is forcibly imposed upon all the world. So, I ask, as an adult, is this really me??"

What do you mean by "forcibly imposed", exactly? The term "globalization" pertains to more than just one country. My husband's company was owned by foreign investors at one time(no longer!). The European Union is another example of 'globalization'.

Beannácht Cáilín agus a chairde.

Marcia
-glad to be at least part Irish. I wouldn't be who I am if I wasn't. :)

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Marcia (66.156.225.4 - 66.156.225.4)
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 06:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I knew I'd made a spelling error.

It should be Firbolgs instead of Borlogs (it's been a while!) and, Tuatha De Danann is how I've seen it spelled the most.

*Is cairde go brách an cairde go lá! -
Putting on the back burner for a day is putting off good.

Buiochas, Seosamh.

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Will (67.32.63.130 - 67.32.63.130)
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 03:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

To Marcia,

Uh-huh, I was taught those values, too. And I have always questioned them. As did Thoreau. In that documentary produced here in America, "The Long Journey Home: The Irish In America" a picture was painted of rural life in Ireland that included many very attractive values like freedom and community and belongingness. Wiped out by the famine and conquest and industrialization.

When I saw that depicted, it seemed more like me than what America offers. But then I'm not Irish merely Irish-American. But I do think Ireland because of her history offers a unique opportunity to model a saner version of modernity for the world. And I wish her well.

I dunno....I do relate to that alot.

Bye
Will

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Cailín (149.157.1.122 - 149.157.1.122)
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 08:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Nollaig shona dóibh!!!!!!!!!!

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

An bail céanna ortsa

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James (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dude,
I am an American, born and raised here. But I am of Irish decent and love my roots in Ireland. So to tell me I am trying to be Irish is... well wrong.
Just because I do not live there does not mean I am not Irish. I did not have a choice of where I was born. Are you telling me that the Irish that came to America were Irish no longer once they got here? Or were their sons and daughters no longer Irish if they were born here? Plus are you German? Because you said you are learning it, so do you pretend to be German or act German. Get the point.
If my great-great grandfather came here in the 1920s, am I not Irish?
Can I be Irish-American? Because Irish-Americans fought in the civil war for this country, under an Irish flag (not the flag of Ireland). They have served in many wars for this country and done many great things for this country, so please do not say that their sons and daughters are not Irish because they were born in America.
Thanks James

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Jessica Ní Chonchúbhair (213.202.161.90 - 213.202.161.90)
Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 05:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Who cares weither some guy thinks your Irish enough for him?

I think it all comes down to personal feeling. If James feels Irish, and his obvious like of it, then isn't he as Irish as those who live in Ireland? I don't think anyone has the power to deny that.

There are a lot of people in Ireland, who could care less about being Irish, and I think the more people that want to take part in our country/culture the better.

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 10:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James,

There are two of us posting here. To avoid confusion would you mind adding an intial or some other identifiable marker to your name? It will help people keep the two of us sorted out.

Go raibh maith agat.

Le meas,

James (eile)

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Éanna Mac Dúghlais (143.239.7.1 - 143.239.7.1)
Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 09:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Isn't there moderators here to lock topics?? Who care that it was started 2 years ago?? I DO. This is far worse that the Nice Summit made ten quintillion times worse. The argument happened in electronic terms a long time ago and I think that those who started it and replied to it 2 years ago have a right to lay it to permanent rest. We have a right not to have our views (be they just or made in the heat of the moment) permanently on display at the top of this forum.

We have said our fair share and if there are those who would like to discuss this then made a new thread. FOR THE LOVE OF... PLEASE!

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